I just don't think a vaginal delivery is in the cards for you.

When I see those pictures, I don't feel that, ugh, we're grid.

I can't believe these are my pictures.

What I see is beautiful babies that are here, neither one of them cares how they were born or how their sibling was born.

They're here and they love having each other.

Motherhood is all consuming.

Having babies, nursing, feeling the fear of loving someone that much, and there's this baby on your chest, and boom, your entire life has changed.

It's a privilege of being your child's safest space and watching your heart walk around outside of your body.

The truth is.

I can be having the best time being a mom one minute, and then the next, I'm questioning all my life choices.

I'm Lo Mansfield, your host of the Lo and Behold podcast, mama of four Littles, former labor and postpartum RN, CLC, and your new best friend in the messy middle space of all the choices you are making in pregnancy, birth, and motherhood.

If there is one thing I know after years of delivering babies at the bedside and then having, and now raising those four of my own, it is that there is no such thing as a best way to do any of this.

And we're leaning into that truth here with the mix of real life and what the textbook says, expert Insights and practical applications.

Each week we're making our way towards stories that we participate in, stories that we are honest about, and stories that are ours.

This is the lo and behold podcast.

Welcome back to another episode of the Lo and Behold podcast.

Today is a birth story episode.

I have Courtney here with me and she's going to share her two birth stories with us.

Before we get into it, I do just wanna let you know that Courtney does speak a little bit about early miscarriage and loss, and so if that is something that just feels really tender to you or not something that you want to hear today, I would encourage you to skip this episode and just come back to it when or if you feel ready to do so.

Courtney, thank you so much for being here with me today and just being willing to tell the stories that you're gonna tell.

I know it can be extra vulnerable sometimes.

Really fun, just a lot of things.

So why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself to all of us a little bit more.

Tell us whatever you want us to know about your family, and then we'll get into your birth stories.

Sure.

Hi everybody.

It is so crazy to be here.

I just, it really does feel like I, i'm meeting a celebrity and that I'm not somebody that should be sharing the story, but our, we have two boys, so my husband and I live in the south.

We're not from the south, but I, I came here for law school and we just decided to stay.

And so that's, that's our family setup for now is just a boy mama through and through.

Mm-hmm.

I love when people say, oh, I don't feel like.

This is what I love.

I guess I always am like absolutely not true, but when people say, oh, I don't feel like I should be telling my story or whatever, I'm like, you know that I'll tell you all the time that all of these stories serve all of us so well.

So it's totally not about like, I am a famous person.

I am someone who has something to say.

Like these stories are just, I think that's why birth podcasts that just tell all the birth stories are so powerful because.

I think we need to hear these stories.

They help us in motherhood not feel alone.

They help us prepare for own birth.

I just, yeah, every time I will take a birth story from anyone who's willing to share it.

So I'm grateful you're here.

Why don't we just go ahead and get right into your guys' story of kind of deciding you were ready for these baby voice.

And yeah, that journey to kind of getting pregnant.

Wanting become parents?

Sure.

So our journey was, I guess, delayed just a little bit because I was going through law school at the time that we got married.

So we got married right after my first year law school is a full three years.

You take the bar and then you have to wait a couple months to get results.

And so I knew throughout that process like it's just.

I know parents that, that go through law school and they are just my heroes, but I knew that that wasn't quite right for us.

And so our kind of initial game plan was that we were gonna be married for five years.

Like we had decided that before we got married.

I dunno why we picked five, five years, it just felt kind of right.

But then I graduated, passed the bar and I started working and one night we just kind of looked at each other.

I'm like, ah, I dunno.

Like I know it was, it was, I think somewhere between like three and a half to almost four years.

And we're like, I think maybe it's.

Time to just try.

And so I didn't do necessarily a lot of like prep, which I'm, I'm normally a prepper.

But it was just one of those things that, you know, I was like, oh, people just get pregnant.

Like, that's just kind of something that happens.

And the, our first time trying, I think we.

We're fairly successful in terms of like, it only took maybe like two or three months of trying.

But unfortunately that first pregnancy actually ended in loss.

And I, I don't know, I've never really known the technical term because I hear sometimes chemical pregnancy, my OB has only ever referred to us a miscarriage, but it was pretty early on.

Like we were just right about the six week mark.

And so obviously never, still to this day don't necessarily know why.

But we, we kind of juggled back and forth on should we try again or should we kind of give it some time?

And, I had read, read a lot of stats that your chances of miscarrying, again, are actually lower if you try within like a certain timeframe of, of your loss.

But I obviously wanted to make sure that not just that my body was ready, but also that my mind and and heart was ready.

Because at that point, like I think part of the.

What makes it so scary losing your first, is that I don't, I didn't know if this was gonna be a chronic problem.

Like I, I didn't know if my body just could not maintain a pregnancy.

But we decided to at least try again.

You know, I think the hope of us having a family was really just.

What kind of fueled us forward and two months from the day that we actually found out that we had lost our first is when I had another positive pregnancy test.

And so I think that actually like being pregnant right after loss really changed a lot of my pregnancy, but also my postpartum experience.

And it had a lot to do with why I had, what I would consider like an unsuccessful or just a difficult, breastfeeding journey with my first and that kind of.

Led into the same sort of issues with my second.

So that was just kind of the kind of start, I guess, for us.

So once you guys were pregnant, what was kind of the hope then moving forward?

Obviously you're saying like, we just hope that this.

Baby makes it, this pregnancy makes it.

But once you kind of were in that place, I'm gonna say, you know, the all clear, where were your minds kind of going next with like birth type of birth?

Like what you guys were wanting as you started to think about, okay, we are gonna have a baby and this, it's gonna be this baby.

Yeah, it was kind of interesting because I didn't spend most of my pregnancy focusing on birth and I, I think it really is because I was just so focused on like living in the here and now and, you know, doing what I can to keep myself safe and healthy.

And it really wasn't until around the 36 week mark that I was like, oh my God.

I'm like, I need to have a baby.

Like I'm, I'm about to deliver a baby.

And right around that time, you know, we did our like 36 week ultrasound.

I don't know if everywhere does that.

And I re all I remember is she, she starts the exam and the ultrasound tech just looks at us and goes.

Or either one of you big babies.

That was the first question out of her mouth.

And I was like, no ma'am.

And but why are you asking me that?

Yeah.

And she was like, oh, it's so weird.

You know, you don't look that big.

He's measuring seven pounds, 15 ounces, and that's at 36 weeks.

And so I would go straight from that into meeting with my ob.

I'm sure.

Eyes were just as absolutely wide as they could be.

And I was like, what in the world?

And she does, I wanna say it was called like the Leopold Maneuver, where she like physically felt, she was like, this is not a seven pound baby.

And Myop thankfully was not worried about that.

Like she told me, she was like, women deliver big babies all the time.

Yeah.

And if this is a big baby, it's, you know, it's not a problem.

And so then I started thinking like, oh, I'm just gonna have, like, it might be a difficult birth, but you know, it's gonna be something that's beautiful.

And then really quickly after that appointment, I started to have issues with my pelvis, honestly, more in my pubic bone than anything.

And it wasn't like the normal synthesis pain from what I had looked up.

You know, they, they talk a lot about that being kind of more of just like an aching or a throbbing, but all of a sudden come about 36 to 37 weeks, I literally felt like my pee bone was going to split in half.

Like I was like, something is not.

Right, like it's just, it, the, the pain that I felt like it wasn't discomfort.

I had synthesis pain with my second, and I could kind of compare the two now, but it was just, I mean, just splitting pain and so, you know, I, I had my follow up with the OB and, and thankfully like we have a couple of really good pelvic floor therapists here, and so I could meet with some of them kind of mixed with the chiropractor and my ob and she started to have my OB started to have some concern at that point that.

Vaginal birth might not be in the cards for me.

But her C-section rate, and I can't remember the number now, is a good bit lower.

And so I was like, okay, at least she's not someone that's quick to jump to C-sections necessarily.

Yeah.

And so I, I wanted to just listen to that, listen to what she was saying, you know, also meeting with my pelvic floor therapists and

it turns out my pubic bone is actually, you know, they're supposed to be curved a, a good bit.

Like mine is really pretty flat and that's why where a lot of that pain was coming.

But I also had a prior back injury and I never really thought about how all of this could come together.

Like I had gotten in an, an accident in college and I had some fractures, in my low back, and I just seemed like everything was not.

Progressing very well.

Mm-hmm.

But at that point was when I was like, I do not wanna have to have a c-section if it's not necessary, you know?

Yeah.

Especially like the narrative kind of on, on the internet is always like, oh, everybody just does a c-section.

Like, I didn't want it to be something where I was going against what my OB said, but I also, you know, I wanted to, to trust that my body could do what I thought it was designed to do.

And so the whole plan, like up until right before he was born was that we were just gonna give it a shot and, myopia was really, really kind and supportive in that and was just like, I will be here, you know, if it's, if it's a long bar, like I will be here kind of supporting that.

And I thought that was great.

And then she finally did, 'cause the pain got to be really pretty severe and also he hadn't fully dropped yet.

So anytime that she did like a cervical, cervical check, she didn't like kind of where he was station wise.

And so she finally did, it was a very, intense pelvic exam and she just was.

Expressing her concern.

Like, I, I just don't know if this is gonna be in the cards for you.

Like, I know how much it means to you.

And she was letting me consult with other people as well, so that it wasn't just her, you know, kind of giving that advice.

But we ended up, I ended up just telling her like, look, if I was your daughter, I need to know what you would tell me to do.

Like knowing that this is something that's important, knowing that it, you know, this is like really my hope.

Like what, what would you tell me as your daughter and.

her response to that was finally just, I, I just don't think a vaginal delivery is, is in the cards for you.

And so I went ahead and we just went forward with the C-section.

And that was really hard.

I didn't know that I cared about the experience of labor until I didn't really get to have one.

And it, it sounds crazy, but I wanted, I wanted the moment of like them getting pulled out and getting put on your chest.

You know, like after you.

Go through that just incredibly difficult experience like you and your husband just bonded together through that.

I just wanted that kind of moment.

Yeah.

And it was really hard for me to accept and to accept that.

Like, I didn't even let my body try.

You know, I've, I've always had a little bit of kind of regret about that, of like, maybe I should have just tried to see, but I will say like during the C-section, there was another doctor that, that came in to assist her and I could hear them talking about my anatomy, which was so funny.

As I'm like listening to what's going, I'm going on right here.

Yeah.

I'm like gonna drop the drape.

Like, Hey, you wanna say that to me?

Hey.

And but he was asking her kind of questions about like, had I been on a prior accident, like have, and so he was kind of going through things.

I'm like, that's so interesting that somebody that.

Has no reason to know why I'm, I'm here.

Getting a c-section was kind of affirming, you know, these reasons.

Yeah.

And I, the c-section went, I think, as good as it could.

I mean, I, it was still, you know, they pull him out.

I was still just like sobbing the, the nurse tech that was right behind me was like, are you okay?

Like, oh, I just, I dunno.

Like, I, I've never just been like completely overcome with emotions like that.

Yeah.

But I, I was like, oh my gosh.

Like I, I, my body did it, like my kid is here.

I didn't care in that moment.

Like I, I mean, I'm still open on the table.

I'm like.

It like, this baby is here and I could hear him crying and then he, you know, gets, gets put like basically on my chest.

And I was like, and it didn't matter.

He didn't care how he was born.

Honestly, I no longer cared how he was born.

And I'm thankful that they're very quick.

So we still had.

The golden hour.

Like I got to nurse him within about 40 minutes of delivering him, you know, anything after that was like, really that, that uninterrupted time.

And so in that way I felt really fortunate.

Like for one, I get this baby.

That was, you know, kind of the end goal.

But I have always had that, like, I just wish,

yeah,

maybe I could've had gone into labor or what, you know, kind of wish I would've tried.

And, I just think that's always probably gonna be something that.

I'll feel even as much as I've accepted that these are just the births that I have.

Yeah, it's one of those like.

You don't know what you don't know, right?

Like even if nine out of 10 people are saying, I don't know that this is for you.

It's just, I think it's always something you hold a little bit of the, like what could have been, even if you're very happy with what is as well.

Like, I think it is that duality of motherhood that I talk about all the time of like.

You.

You know, to me so far you sound like you're very much okay with how things went and you found a lot of beauty and joy and up to this point and all of that.

And also there's this little bit of like, I do wonder what could have been on the other side of the coin, but I'm also okay with the side that I have.

It's just this kind of funky thing that you have to hold, which I'm sure you were learning to hold in postpartum and with all other kinds of things too.

But anyway, you could keep going, but.

I just think that you're not alone in that kind of both and type feeling about how your birth went up to that point.

Yeah, I've, I've heard a lot of women talk, even, even women that had vaginal, you know, some of them had got the epidural and we're curious if they could have done it.

Not, you know, there's exactly of always that.

And so I really never thought about it.

I, my healing was.

Relatively easy.

I mean, it was pretty uncomplicated.

I didn't have, with my first, I got a little dicier with my second.

But I mean, everything was fine.

Like, it, it wasn't something that was incredibly difficult, you know, in the hospital.

Like we didn't have problems with Latch, which I knew so little going into having a baby about breastfeeding.

And that's, that's one of the things that I probably regret more than anything about my birth is just I wish I had.

Dug into the resources a little bit more before I actually had him, because once I started having problems, like at that point it felt like it was too late to, to kind of learn.

But we had lactation support in the hospital and they were great.

I mean, somebody met us in the like postpartum recovery room before actually going up to our room.

That's

awesome.

And she was, like I said, it was.

Less than 40 minutes from the time that he was born until when I was nursing.

And she helped show me how to do that.

And they were really good about, you know, teaching me kind of how to work with my body post C-section, and.

And all of that.

And I thought like everything was relatively fine.

I mean, he dropped a normal percent and you know, all of the pediatricians were pretty good about explaining to me like, it's normal, you know, anything less than 10% is not necessarily concerning.

And also the, the one really helped me understand like you got a lot of fluids before the C-section started.

And so she was like, and the baby did not get some of that squeezed out going through the canal.

She was like, it's not uncommon that he might lose a little bit more.

Mm-hmm.

So everything really was fine.

Like in the hospital, it felt as much as, as much as being in the hospital after having a baby can, you know Yeah.

Be restful and, and peaceful.

It, it did really feel great.

The tide turned just a little bit when we came home, which I'm sure a lot of people can understand.

Relate

to that.

Yeah.

Like this is our first time with a newborn.

My husband's first.

Time of holding a newborn mm-hmm.

Was holding ours.

Yeah.

And so there was just so much that we didn't know, and I was dealing with some pretty intense postpartum anxiety.

I didn't know really at the time that that's what it was.

And I think, I think a lot of moms experience that, but I also think, you know, like I was so protective of this baby because I just was so scared of another loss and most of the pregnancy I had been telling myself like, once he is born and I can just lay my eyes on him, I think this anxiety is, is really gonna settle.

Like, I believed that the whole time.

It didn't, it just kind of shifted.

And so all of a sudden I have this day, and it was over the weekend, it was Saturday morning, I woke up and I just.

Was overcome with anxiety over nursing him.

It didn't help that throughout that day he was like pretty sleepy, which of course he, he was, he was a newborn.

Like he's four or five days old at this point.

But I just all of a sudden was like, I'm starving him.

Like I, I just think I'm, I'm not producing enough.

Like nobody in my family had really tried to breast, I mean, my, my mom did a little bit, but you know her, she had to go back to work so early.

It just wasn't.

Didn't work for her.

And so nobody really around me in my immediate circle had successfully breastfed.

That could kind of talk me down off of some of that.

Talk to me about what's normal.

I tried to reach out to, we have a pretty big lactation group here in my city, but they weren't covered by insurance and so it was the weekend, which was difficult to get them to come up anyway.

It wasn't covered by insurance and the house calls for that could be pretty expensive.

So I was like, I'm just gonna pump to see like maybe if I can see what I'm producing, you know, that will help.

Mm-hmm.

And because I hadn't done much read, like again, I thought it was just something you did like I thought breastfeeding you just.

Feed the baby pumping.

You just pump like, I, you know, there's so many ins and outs I just didn't know.

And so I was using like the flange sizes that come with the spectra.

Yeah.

Which I think is like a 24 maybe.

When I got size for my second, I was like a 17 or a 19.

Yeah.

So

the first time that I pumped it really wasn't a problem.

And I felt myself totally empty.

And so it kind of gave me that feeling of like, okay, this is what people talk about when they talk about feeling full versus feeling empty.

Mm-hmm.

I thought maybe pumping the one time would be fine, but then, you know, I kind of continued to have problems.

Like I never felt that full feeling again.

I know eventually that they would regulate, but I'm like, I'm only five days postpartum at this point.

Like I should feel that kind of engorged feeling.

So I decided to keep pumping because I couldn't, like the anxiety, just I couldn't do it.

But because I didn't have to like Right.

Franchisees, like over time I was just getting less and less and less and less.

And so I was like watching this dwindle over the weekend and it felt like there was just nothing I could do.

I mean, I would pump the whole time that.

My husband got up and was like feeding him, and so it'd be like 20 or 30 minutes every two to three hours.

And it got to where at the end of that I like literally wouldn't even have a drip that was there.

And so I'm like sobbing of course over the like what I call the the failed experience.

And I just couldn't believe like this is a thing that's supposed to happen, like women just.

You know, like it's supposed to be easy.

And again, I only had a handful of people that did successfully breastfeed, and from what I knew about their journeys, like they were pretty uncomplicated.

So we ended up, switching a formula at that point.

But because I just, I still had that guilt that I just could not get over.

I actually tried to lactate around the five or six month mark, so.

I was switching, you know, I was in practice at this point, which like the practice of law was just not, not something that, you know, it was giving me a lot of downtime.

Yeah.

But I ended up switching to teaching and so I had that, that his first summer of life I had it completely off, and so I'm like, I'm at home with him.

You know it.

Mm-hmm.

There's, we're not doing anything else.

I had finally done enough research on pumping, and so I understood.

I had different measuring tools, you know, like I felt like I had kind of what I needed.

I didn't know how successful it would be because.

You know, I had a five day breastfeeding journey and, and had gone on a break for five months, but I just felt like I couldn't let it go.

And so I tried that for a good bit and it was not great experience.

I mean, you know, there was a lot of like bleeding and just pain and it just, it felt like one of those things I'm like, man, like I'm really trying.

And I, I just felt disappointed, I guess, that my body wasn't getting the cue for that.

Yeah.

But by that point, you know, I'd been trying for so long it, it wasn't working and now.

We're about to start back at school.

And so that just kind of had to be the end of it for that.

Which was sad.

And you know, like I said, I always kind of feel that, I just wish, I'd wish I wouldn't even have put the pump on that that first time.

Yeah, but I, I just, I mean, it was a crippling ex, like I'm, I'm telling you, I, he was, I was starving him is all I could, that is all I could think.

Like it, there was nothing that could talk me out of that because I was just so riddled with anxiety, I think at that point.

Yeah.

I can tell you from taking care of moms, you know, before we sent them home, that, that the number of times I heard like, baby is starving.

I don't have any milk.

And I know you're, you were a few days past, you know, this two or three day point when I still had these patients with me.

But it is such a prolific feeling and I think if you add any.

Maybe anxiety or some of this extra kind of angst that you're talking about.

It is very easy to be right where you were.

You're a brand new mom.

You've never done this before.

It sounds like maybe you didn't do a ton of education about, you know, breastfeeding milk supply, what it will actually look like or whatever.

And so it's like, it makes perfect sense to me, I guess, to have that feeling and to just think like, this isn't working, and the pump is so reassuring to see, I just made four and a half ounces.

Great.

Okay.

There's milk, this baby's getting milk.

But when that isn't going well, yeah, I just, I guess I'm saying, I just totally understand, I'll call it that, a spiral of.

Of where you ended up, right, of this isn't working, I'm gonna try this.

Oh, now I'm really scared.

And it just gets like worse and worse.

And unless you have maybe that person, the lactation consultant, someone to step in and go, whoa, whoa, whoa.

We're okay.

We're okay.

Like it's hard to pull yourself out of that.

Like how are you gonna do that on your own?

And I was trying, you know, 'cause I, I had read do Awaited feed and so I'm like, okay, right.

So I'm looking at, but I can't find a scale for that.

And so, I mean, I sent my husband to like 50 different stores in town and I'm like, I need you to find something that would work for Liz and all of those skills.

The only thing that we could find is online.

But I was like, I need it right now.

Right now.

Yeah.

So, you know that happening, I think over the weekend was, was.

Really where we failed, it was during the week.

I could have just taken him in.

Like the lactation center was really good about letting you come in on the drop of a hat to do a weighted feed.

But you know, once that happened kind of over the weekend and it had been a couple of days and then I'm like working through it, still eating into that next week and just nothing's happening.

At that point, I felt like I couldn't get it back.

So it just was kind of the end.

Okay.

So anything else about this postpartum before you guys?

I know we're gonna jump ahead probably before you got to the point where you were thinking, hey, like we'd like to do this again and then I'm sure you can share as well, but what you would were hopeful it would look like too.

I don't

think so.

I mean, I think that.

Really tells his school story,

sums it up.

Okay, well why don't you then kind of get into the next of wanting to try again and Yeah, we'll go from there.

So we felt, you know, a lot of pressure, like the two under two thing is, is so common.

And it's here in the South, like it's, I'm, I'm telling you, the average family has like four kids.

And so because we had started kids just a little bit later than some other people, you know, I was like, oh, we kind of gotta.

Gotta get on this.

But I knew, especially having the C-section and also just for my own like physical and mental health, I'm like, we probably need to space things out.

And so, my oldest was around 18 months and we're like, okay, I think this is a safe time for us to start trying.

And thankfully, you had actually posted something like, around the time that I was thinking about it, that was like, here's a good idea, here's kind of a recommended from birth to conception.

And so I, I felt pretty good about that.

I felt like we were in a good place.

Kind of same thing.

You know, we weren't people that got pregnant like the first month of trying, but it was within a, a handful of months, like 3, 4, 5 months.

And so in that way I, I felt really fortunate.

His pregnancy, my second pregnancy was a little bit more challenging.

You know, being pregnant with a toddler was more challenging.

I also was a good bit, like my first, I had maybe a week and a half of morning sickness, like up until the very end I had.

Probably a dream pregnancy in terms of physical symptoms.

Mm-hmm.

With my second, I was sick as a dog and I'm teaching at this point, and so I couldn't even have, like, there were mornings where like taking a sip of water was.

Just about all I could do.

And even that sometimes could, you know, turn me the wrong way.

And so we're real early.

I'm trying, trying not to have anybody know.

I'm sure my students were like, man, she's having a lot and why?

Like, just something's not right.

But other than that, you know, I, I think he did pretty well.

And I had, for both pregnancies, I forgot to mention this.

For my first, I had to supplement with progesterone.

Okay.

And with my second, he, even on progesterone, like, so because of my first thoughts I had to do.

A blood test like every week for weeks four to eight.

And then at eight weeks we got to do an ultrasound.

And so with my second, the first test looked good, we started on progesterone just to be safe.

And then the second week the progesterone actually dropped.

I think it went from like 23 to maybe 18, and so I was still technically within eight.

Safe number, but it was on the low end of safe.

And so my OB went ahead and upped the progesterone.

And then after that, you know, things, really went pretty smooth.

I was sicker a lot.

I also, because I had a kid at home mm-hmm.

That pregnancy, we had three stomach bugs that went around the house.

And so, you know, it was, it was difficult in that way.

I had a lot of insomnia, so.

Not just like, I can't sleep because I'm uncomfortable, but I would wake up if something woke me up, you know, the dogs are barking or, or my kid was crying, something woke me up in the middle of the night.

I was up for at least three hours, not get my body to.

And I mean, it kind of was what, you know, it was just one of those things I'm like, now I know why women complain about pregnancy with, with my first, I was like, I kind of feel like y'all are over hyping this.

Yeah.

But with my second I was like, no, actually this, this is really difficult.

But I really was hoping that maybe my second story would be very redemptive in terms of birth and also breastfeeding.

Like it was very important to me to have a more successful breastfeeding.

Story because I, I just had felt like I failed my first for so long and, you know, that was a guilt that I carried for a long time and I was like, I don't wanna have this guilt again.

But I also really was hoping to be able to have a vbac.

And so I met with my provider about that.

I was not a good candidate and I can't remember all of the.

There was like a score basically that, that she gave her some of that.

And, but because again, she's like, I know that this is such a problem.

But she really is a provider that I feel like will give you that opportunity.

Like her stats on the VBAC were really good.

And, we go to church with one of the midwives that work with her and.

We were, she said that in their group, they were kind of doing a poll of like, who would would let you have a VBAC after two C-sections?

And my V was the one that was like, voted to do.

So, you know, I'm like, okay, she's totally gonna let me do it.

Yeah.

Like, this will be great.

And so we, we go in and it was like.

I guess I was hoping that, because now I'm like, okay, now I've carried two babies, like I know so much opens up, you know, your hips change your, so I'm like, maybe I know it was an anatomy problem before, but maybe that's not an issue now.

And so I kind of go in with that on that first appointment.

Just super excited.

And she's like, I, let's, I wanna see kind of where we get further into the pregnancy.

She was like, the problem, like.

Hip side to side, you, you have room.

It's the front to back.

That's more of the problem.

Like with the issues that you had with your back and with your pubic bone.

I don't know that that's gonna really change, but we'll see.

And you know, started in with pelvic four therapist and a chiropractor, and again, just doing what I thought I could do to get my body in a better position, I guess.

And then we kind of go through, I'm still, I mean, I've done.

As, as much research as I think I can in terms of like, what, how to, to help a vba, you know, optimal positioning, kind of what you can do, conversations to have with your provider, questions to ask, things like that.

And so we, we ran the ga I mean, myope was, was probably so tired of my appointments being so long and she was so, she sounds amazing though.

Just letting me ask all the, I mean, I would come in literally with, and I'd have my notes app open on my phone and I'd be like checking off the questions as we, as we went.

That's

great.

That's good.

But she, she really did welcome in.

So that, that was fine.

And then towards the end, you know, we do that 36 week appointment and I had a lot of pain in my left hip.

The synthesis pain of course was, was there, but it wasn't like it was with my first, but everything was really targeted towards that left hip.

And at the appointment, you know, she goes and she, she starts on that side because I was telling her, I'm like, I dunno if, like, his little bottom, I don't know.

And it turns out he was pretty sideways at that point.

Like, I don't really know how they fit well that way.

And I, there's.

I think you had just recently shared, but there's like a name for.

When that's their position,

transverse.

Yes.

I think,

is that right?

That's when their like head is actually, I mean there's asy clinic is crooked.

There's different vocabulary, so it would maybe depend on what she was actually seeing or feeling, what the specific vocab would be for it.

But transverse is when they're kind of sideways instead of the head being like the back of the head being to the front or the back.

It's kind of along your side.

So maybe along the side that was hurting you.

Yeah.

That

kind of where we were at.

And so then I'm like looking and I had.

Seen, you know, you had, I think you even have a thing on your, Instagram, like one of the little stories at the top.

And I was like, okay, how do I get him to move?

Because yeah, tell, like I, me and the skater are having conversations.

I'm like, honey, you need to help me here because it already doesn't look good.

You know, both.

And again, she had, let me see a couple other providers to just kind of go through the history, do an exam, had a lot of pelvic exams in pregnancy and postpartum.

I mean, it was, it was a very intimate experience for sure.

And, you know, I'm kind of hearing the same thing fairly consistently, but I was, I just, you know, kind of wanted the experience and so I felt like I was going in probably with unrealistic expectations, thinking it would just work perfectly that way.

And so, okay.

I'm sorry to interrupt, but I, I'm curious maybe if someone else is thinking this too.

So first baby, the decision for the cesarean was anatomy and the size, right?

Like, 'cause it still was kind of like big baby, and this anatomy doesn't feel maybe, what would be the word?

I can't think of a anatomy that's going to work for vaginal birth.

Do you guys, do you feel like there was a size conversation with baby number two as well, or was more just like, we just don't know that your anatomy can do vaginal birth, like regardless of the size of the baby,

they, no.

Yeah, she, once they, and she told me like one, and she put it in her like post-op notes and was like, it her.

It was actually the statement from the other surgeon.

What I heard him tell her is, it doesn't matter if this was a five pound baby.

Okay.

This wouldn't have worked.

And so with my second size never even came up.

They did that 36 week ultrasound.

He was, I think half a pound bigger.

Like he was over, eight pounds.

My first was only seven 10, so he wasn't big by any means.

Yeah, yeah.

But with, with him, I mean, the only.

The only conversation was like, wow, I feel like I'm as big as a house, so maybe he is a bigger baby.

Right.

But some of the other providers I know had had.

I asked about those, like waiting for that 36 week appointment.

Mm-hmm.

But at least for Myope and anybody at her office, it, it was just, Hey, we're looking at these notes.

Both of the surgeons had something that they put in about mm-hmm.

Concern over your pelvis and, and something with your back.

Got it.

And I was like, okay, I guess.

That's just how it's gonna work.

Yeah.

Which on one hand, like I said, it's always gonna be that.

Like what if I had tried, but it was kind of nice to know, like hearing him say that it wasn't something where, you know, that's like my surgeon trying to confirm what she thought.

Like this is somebody who didn't even know all these conversations.

Like, oh my goodness.

Yeah, this, this ended up working out well for her.

I think.

So we go ahead and, and schedule the C-section.

I'm still thinking like maybe something will change, you know, in, in the weeks leading up to actually having him.

His position never did change.

Like I felt like it didn't matter what I did, and I don't know if it was because he was bigger, or if it was, you know, just a flu thing that he.

Was gonna do that on his own time, if, if he wanted to.

But we ended up going with the second C-section.

This time I wanted to change and make it more patient friendly, I think is the language that you use.

And so your page had all of this information about how that could be done.

And the main thing that I wanted was that clear drape because part of what may was maybe the most devastating, other than missing that feeling of, you know, them getting pulled out and being put on your chest is, I feel like I didn't.

See his birth.

I mean, she held him up over the drape, you know, for a second so I could see him.

They thankfully have a setup in the room where they could do everything that they needed for the baby, like in the immediate after birth, right next to where you're having the C-section.

So I could see him the whole time, and then he comes on my chest, but I still didn't.

See him be born.

Yeah.

And I, that's so weird.

But I was like, I wanna watch my child come into the, into the world.

That's

not weird.

Lots of people want that.

Yeah.

So when I saw that the clear drape was an option, I, I asked my OB about it and she was like, oh, yeah.

Patients don't normally ask for that, but we absolutely can do that.

Mm-hmm.

And so, and we had, I had talked with her because they let you take pictures in the operating room, but they didn't like videos.

Mm-hmm.

And I was like, look, I'll just say Dr. L. I'm like, I totally get it.

But also like.

And I, I was devastated about it the whole time.

So she knew that like having a c-section was really kind of challenging for me.

And I was like, I just feel like I'm like failing my kids.

And I feel like, you know, other moms have this like beautiful birth story that they get to tell their kids and I can't even say that I like saw you when you were born.

Like it's, it's so important to me.

I wanna be able to see it.

I knew I wasn't gonna be able to see over my gigantic belly behind the kid drink.

And I was like, just for that, like.

Split second of them actually being pulled out, like, can we video that?

And she's like, okay, fine.

You know, it was hospital palsy, hers.

Anyway, so she, but and so we, we, you know, my husband was taking.

Secret video, secret videos and, and some really sweet pictures.

And then they, she put him up to the clear drape and just let me talk to him.

He had some breathing issues and so they actually ended up having to intubate him a couple of times, like he's still in the the or, but then they get him back to me and it's the same thing, like this time it was a little bit long, like 45 to closer to 50 minutes between when he was actually pulled out to when I got to nurse and cuddle him in all of that.

Mm-hmm.

Just because he had some of the.

The breathing issues.

And then this time around I'm like, okay, I know I want lactation here.

You know, I know I want somebody talking.

And I knew kind of the ins and outs, the, the small things about making sure that everything's lined up when they're eating.

And I already knew, like a couple of positions.

, He had a hard time latching on my left side, and so was like, let's try the football hole.

You know, I felt like I went into this so much more prepared because I had spent.

Hours doing research before I actually had him in terms of like how to make your breastfeeding journey more successful, you know, kind of different issues that you might have.

I researched a lot more about, breastfeeding after a C-section because I know that can change some things.

Delay milk, things like that.

So, mm-hmm.

Just going in, I felt so much more on top of it, which in my mind meant that we were gonna have a perfect.

Breastfeeding journey.

Mm-hmm.

And it was very complicated for a handful of different reasons.

I mean, I'm happy, but also sad to say like we made it eight months, which compared to, you know, like eight days with my first, yeah.

That felt so great.

But I had always thought like, okay, I'm gonna be the mom that breastfeeds past one.

And, so there's still a little bit of that.

That was, that was disappointing.

But because of all the issues that we had with his journey, I mean, that was just.

I think the best that, that I could do in that season, I guess.

Yeah.

Was there anything specific related to the breastfeeding the second time that made it extra challenging or like anything you would wanna share?

Like this happened the first time and the second, or was it just kind of a whole new experience the second time where you were like, we're starting from scratch again?

And it kind of did follow that its own path too.

It,

it started relatively normal.

Mm-hmm.

You know, I, I kind of knew what to expect.

He was a very, very.

Like boob friendly baby.

I mean, my postpartum nurse for the first like day shift that was there, she did literally did not see his face until the second day.

Like, so she walks in, she's like, oh my gosh, I finally get to meet him.

Yeah,

it's cute.

And I was like, oh, have you?

She's like, no, every time I've been in here, like he was wanting to eat.

And so, and you know, they asked about a pacifier and I was like, no, like I don't wanna mess anything up.

And so I kind of was his pacifier.

He still is now he's.

16 months.

Like he still is just a comfort sucker.

And so I thought that was great.

I'm like, that's totally fine.

I think if anything, like that's just gonna help supply.

So I felt good about that.

Other than the toll it takes to be a human pacifier, you know, 24 7.

Mm-hmm.

So we get through.

Initially his weight gain is a little bit slow.

My pediatrician initially was pretty on board with it because we were trending in the right direction.

He wants an, the babies to gain an ounce a day, but I know that there are other people at our practice that are comfortable with half an ounce.

And so we were within, you know, kind of a slow growing process, but we were doing okay and then.

Right around three weeks, something just radically shifted with him like he was eating in a way that like I could tell it wasn't that he was cluster feeding.

I could tell that something was bothering him, and he was wanting to nurse to make himself feel better.

And then all of a sudden I change his diaper and he has this bizarre like.

Green mucusy diaper.

And I was like, that looks really weird to me.

And so, one of my friends is, she's a postpartum nurse.

And so I side center this and I'm like, I know this is kind of maybe outside, but like why, what is going on?

And she was like, oh, actually that looks just like her son's poop around the same time.

And he had, some sort of protein intolerance.

So she was like, go ahead and take that diver to the pediatrician and they can test it.

His pediatrician told me the symptoms that we were experiencing was just reflux and just burp him more.

And I was like, I don't know.

Like my first had a little bit of about with reflux and I was like, this doesn't feel like reflux to me.

Something seems different.

And so we got an appointment with a different pediatrician at that same office.

We talked to her and she immediately was like, this sounds like it's gonna be some sort of protein intolerance.

You know, dairy is usually the, the main one.

So she tests his diaper, it tests positive for microscopic blood, which.

She was like that pretty much confirms that he's got some sort of intolerance.

He also had really bad, like it, like I thought it was baby acne, but now I see it was probably a little bit of a rash in response to whatever it was like aggravating him.

So that kind of started making things a little bit challenging.

I cut dairy and then in place of that, like I would have, you know, eggs or something for breakfast and.

On mornings I had that the same issue would happen.

I'm like, okay, maybe I gotta cut eggs.

And so I cut eggs out and then I replaced that with like peanut butter toast.

And the same sort of thing happened with peanut butter.

And I was like, okay, I cut peanuts.

And so I had like a fairly restricted diet because dairy, I mean, it sounds silly, but dairy isn't everything.

And then you cut eggs and protein.

So that, that alone was kind of challenging.

And then right around, so this is within like the next month.

I start feeling like I'm going to start my period again.

Which was so disappointing because I'm like, mm-hmm.

I would thought I'd have this, you know, longer time.

But it, it, I mean, it felt like it was just, it was gonna come, it was gonna come, you know, I'd have its terrible bloating, horrible cramping, and, you know, I had like a lot of mood fluctuations.

And so at that same time, I start realizing like he was having a harder time nursing.

So I go and do a weighted feed, like my supply had dropped, I had pumped before that happened.

Not because I was losing my mind, but just because I was like, okay, I wanna see like pump start kind of pumping in the morning.

Like I really wanted to start building a supply as much as I could.

And so, you know, I could see kind of what I was getting before.

And then I, I had done some weighted feeds for him, so I knew what our norm was and then all of a sudden it just, my supply just like tanked.

And I was like, what is happening?

So I'm triple feeding him for a long time.

Like I was probably triple feeding him for close to three weeks, right around the one month.

How far postpartum were you?

Little over a month.

This

at this point.

Okay.

So I shouldn't have been like, it was four weeks to the day that I said, why do I feel like I'm gonna start my cycle?

And I got in with a lactation consultant.

I asked her about it and she was like, it's, you know, unusual that you would start that early, but it's, it's possible that you could.

And that's when we did the weighted feed and the weighted feed was just not right.

And so I started triple feeding, like pretty much that day.

But we also had to supplement a little because he just was having such a hard time.

Yeah.

Like I, you, I could tell he was, I mean, he's like tugging at the breast, you know?

Yeah.

Like he, I could feel that.

Unfortunately, and that was devastating.

I mean, I was sobbing through the first time that I gave him a bottle because I'm like, no, I did what, what I was supposed to, you know, I had him at the first 24 7, those first two weeks.

Like, that's what everybody tells me.

And, you know, I cut all this stuff out of my diet that seemed like it was bothering him, and it was really, really devastating.

Dating.

But you know, I did the three weeks of triple feeding, which was unbearable.

I mean, it was so much, and it was hard in that time too because, you know, my, my oldest at this point was just over two, so two in a couple of months.

And it was like ev, I mean, you know, breastfeeding at this point just took up every ounce, everything of my time.

But I knew that I felt so much guilt.

For my first, I'm like, I cannot feel that again.

And so thankfully around month two, for whatever reason, things kind of stabilized.

Like I stopped feeling like I was gonna have my period all the time.

You know, like the, like, it just felt, things felt a little bit more normal.

And so for months, two to five things are relatively okay, in terms of not having to triple feed all of the time.

The downside is during that, of course the four month sleep regression was pretty rough.

And so he would have a couple of hours during the night where he was up every 20 minutes.

Mm-hmm.

And so I'm back at work, I'm teaching.

And I'm teaching law.

So it's, it's something that I have to, like, I need to mentally be there to help the students process through.

You do.

And

there was a class that I was teaching, and I'm like right in the middle of talking about this like deep constitutional law issue.

And I can't, I cannot formulate a sentence.

And so I just like, kind of take a minute.

I'm like, I, I'm sorry.

And one of my students looks at me and kind of whispers, are you okay?

And I'm like, no.

No, I'm not,

not okay.

But we, you know, we're like, let's just keep powering through, like whatever he wants to do at night, you know, it just, but it was hard.

I mean, when you're not sleeping like that and it's, it's.

You know, can get kind of stressful.

Like that adds a stressor, of course, between me and my husband, and even me and my oldest, and honestly to me and the baby, which that sounds so bad, but it, it just was something where it was like, why can you not work with me here?

You know?

Yeah.

And I, I was like really ashamed by those feelings, but it just was like, I wanted so bad to just have this beautiful breastfeeding journey that I just wanted.

I, I just wanted us to be that team that, you know, you talk about and it's like, I wanted those beautiful thoughts of like being in the middle of the night nursing.

And it's like when I only had to do that, you know, two or three times a night, I did think it was like holy and beautiful and like this really sacred work.

But when you're doing that 27 times a night, it kind of about that, and so, you know, months two to five are good.

And then for whatever reason, it came back around five months where it was the same kind of thing that I was like, oh, okay, my cycle must be coming back.

And all of the symptoms, like I would've bet my life's savings on this is coming back.

And I don't know why it was doing it, but it never did.

But like I was back to triple feeding.

I was back to, you know, power pumping, like, especially when I was at work.

And so I was doing everything that I felt like I could do to, to make things a little bit better.

And then at.

Month six, we had decided like, let's just do one bottle of formula for that night.

Because I was hoping that like, maybe that would help some of the sleep stuff that we were going through, like get him nice and cool.

Yeah.

And plus that feeding was always kind of a nightmare.

Like I could tell my supply around that bedtime feeding was really, really low.

And so he would get, you know, kind of back to tugging and, and just wanting more.

So we swapped that out and like while he was eating I would go ahead and pump and then, we kind of kept on that for.

Month, six to eight.

And then, month eight for me would've been right around Christmas break.

And so I have three weeks off from school, but my spring semester was gonna be really difficult.

I was teaching a couple of new courses.

The course hours were kind of funky and we were like hosting a couple of long term events and I was like, I don't know how I can keep up pumping at this point.

And I felt like that kind of resentment had built.

To the point of where now it, it's not this beautiful journey that we're in together now.

Like I'm forcing myself to do it so I can check off that box of a year and I wish I, you know, like I wish, not that I would've kept going, I wish it would've been.

More feasible for me to do that.

Yeah.

But it was, I mean, it was the, like I look back now and I'm like, that was in that eight month time was like just this wild rollercoaster on top of, you know, wanting to heal and having another baby, like after a c-section is, is it was just all kind of chaotic.

Yeah.

So it wasn't this like textbook.

Yeah.

Perfect.

Beautiful story, but it was still.

You know, something that in a weird way, like I'm really proud of that.

Yeah.

I'm really proud of the fact that I did power pump for so long, or I did triple feed for so long.

Yeah,

it's just like I said, I, I really wish, I wish it wouldn't have had to be the case.

I guess.

Courtney, I feel like so much of your story birth too and you know, the desire to have vaginal birth and navigating the VBAC hope the second time and all of that, I feel like.

There's just so much of it that is the proof of the, like the way we think it's gonna be, and then the way that it actually is, and just like learning to dance between that.

I think this is personal for me, but as an educator, it's such a dance for me of like.

Hey, this is what could be for you, and I want that for you.

You know, assuming whatever kind of some of these ideals are, or like the year of breastfeeding or the vaginal birth or whatever.

But also like acknowledging the realities of like, here's some things that go wrong sometimes, or here's some things that might not work out, or maybe you'll have low supply, like whatever it is.

And so it's so hard, I think.

Educator or not, but like as moms to kind of say like, I do long for X, Y, Z, but I have A, B, C. And just figure out like how to feel about that.

When to push harder and when to say, you know what, actually this is the way it is.

And I'm gonna just do the work instead in, in my heart to be okay with what I've got instead of what I was hoping for or whatever.

It's just, it's a lot.

It's hard work.

I mean, you did such a beautiful job just listening to you.

You sound very, I'm gonna use it like boring word, but very okay with some of the things that didn't work out.

Even though I can also hear that you're like, yeah, I do wish it had gone differently.

I just think like, kudos to you.

You should be proud because.

It didn't all go perfectly and you still decided when to lean in really hard and then when to let it go and, and that's hard to do.

Yeah, that's been that, I mean, of everything that was like difficult in the journey.

I, I think coming to peace with the journey being what it is was probably the hardest part of all of it.

Like, and I think I wasted so much time after my first, you know, like kind of kicking myself for the way his birth went, or especially like how I was breastfeeding with, I'm like, I am missing the most.

Beautiful and like sacred time with my kids.

Yeah.

Instead, you know, just fixating on stuff that I either could not have done differently or stuff that I can't fix that now.

Right.

And so, and that's kind of what, you know, where I feel like you just kinda have to get where it's, I I, I'm always gonna have that sadness.

Like every time I see a, even if it's a movie, like when I watch somebody have a baby, I always gonna have that like tear that wants to just weld.

That's like, man, it's so beautiful.

Mm-hmm.

But I can't let myself like go down that.

Rabbit hole because it, for me like that, that just really affects, I mean, it affects so much for me how I parent who I, you know, and I have to focus on the beauty in the story and like I got what I wanted at the end of the day, and that was two babies that are heal here and healthy.

And when I look at those pictures, you know, I always look back to some of those pictures and it's like, when I see those pictures, I don't feel that like, ugh, regret, I can't believe these are my pictures.

What I see is.

Beautiful babies that are here and like me as a mom, I let myself lay on the table and get cut open to bring them into, like, that's an incredible thing.

And so I think, and I, you know, I, I don't necessarily know where that came from other than, like I said, just kind of that mindset where I was like, I have, I have to do this.

I will that let these kind of thoughts continue to

Yeah,

ruin the experience.

It's just not, it's not fair to them.

Yeah.

Well, I think you're doing a beautiful job of it from what I got to hear from you today, so I am very proud of you.

Thank you.

Unless you have something else to share that's like a gorgeous place to end, I would love for you to share if there were any resources you found helpful first, or maybe the second time when you were like, oh, I wanna do a little bit more.

So that any resources, books, whatever it might've been, and then if someone wanted to reach out to you, if there was a place to do that, if they just wanted.

To talk to you, or maybe they have a similar story or something like that.

Yeah.

So, follow the labor mama on Instagram.

Thank you.

I got a lot of my resources from you.

Carrie Locker is another one that she mm-hmm.

Posts a lot of, like, breastfeeding stuff.

And so I, I know she's got like a breastfeeding course, but she has a lot just on her page and she had to triple feed, the baby that was born not long before.

Mine was born.

Mm-hmm.

And so a lot of that was very fresh for her.

And so that information was helpful.

did a lot of Googling.

Yeah.

And a lot of like, it was like the American College of Obstetrics, I think was one.

Yeah.

And, there's another one for pediatrician.

So basically anything that I could find that was like supported by our doctors here or that's supported, nationally, I, I found that all to be really helpful.

Just more information.

And I ended up, I think I. Bought, or I was about to buy the, your, breastfeeding course, but then Ezra came a little bit sooner than what I was thinking it would, and so I don't think I ever actually got to watch it.

But I did follow so much like through your Instagram and, Carey Locker's Instagram too I thought was helpful.

And then, like I said, all of the, different things that I could see online, I, I found that to be the most.

Okay.

Perfect.

And for a of me.

I think probably Instagram's the easiest way.

Sure.

And so my Instagram handle is, it seems like clove, but it's C Love and then the number 42.

Okay.

Perfect.

I think that's really it.

Okay.

And then last question does not have to be about the boys or birth, that can be whatever.

What's something right now in your life that's just.

Bringing you a ton of joy, sparking a lot of joy.

I think the sibling dynamic, I was very nervous when I was pregnant with my second, most of my, like, I mean, at least half of my pregnancy, I was like, feeling regret, like what did I just do?

I just took this time away from my oldest, like, he's gonna be so resentful.

You know, he's not gonna understand why he doesn't get mommy all the time.

But then now, especially that my youngest is like walking and he says like a handful of words and he's very, very interactive.

They like have their own little.

Secret language.

Like they'll, they'll be like gabbing in the backseat and like, Hey, my youngest only knows like, so cute, 15, 20 words.

But he'll just like get to saying something and my youngest or my oldest responds back, and they'll, they'll start playing something and just make each other belly laugh.

I'm like, ah, that, that gift is so, so beautiful.

And like I said, neither one of them cares how they were born or how their sibling was born.

They're here and they.

They love having each other, so I think that's probably my favorite.

I love it.

That's perfect.

Well, thank you so much for sharing both of those stories, both of those postpartums, and yeah, I'm just excited to see what comes next for you and your fam.

Thank you.

I.

Thank you so much for listening to the Lo and Behold podcast.

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