At our core, we have this overwhelming love, but it doesn't mean to say that there aren't challenges that come with it.

And if we are to bottle all of those feelings up and not address what some of these challenges are and be able to just voice them with someone else and unpack it, then it's gonna be a really lonely journey and just feeling understood and seen in motherhood.

Honestly, it's like therapy.

Motherhood is all consuming.

Having babies, nursing, feeling the fear of loving someone that much, and there's this baby on your chest, and boom, your entire life has changed.

It's a privilege of being your child's safest space and watching your heart walk around outside of your body.

The truth is.

I can be having the best time being a mom one minute, and then the next, I'm questioning all my life choices.

I'm Lo Mansfield, your host of the Lo and Behold podcast, mama of four Littles, former labor and postpartum RN, CLC, and your new best friend in the messy middle space of all the choices you are making in pregnancy, birth, and motherhood.

If there is one thing I know after years of delivering babies at the bedside and then having, and now raising those four of my own, it is that there is no such thing as a best way to do any of this.

And we're leaning into that truth here with the mix of real life and what the textbook says, expert Insights and practical applications.

Each week we're making our way towards stories that we participate in, stories that we are honest about, and stories that are ours.

This is the lo and behold podcast.

Today's guest is one that has been speaking into my life and into my motherhood for basically as long as I have been a mother.

And I don't know that she knows that, but I bet I am not the only person who would potentially be able to say that.

I have Jess ish with me today.

She is an author and she is a poet, which I think so many of us know her for those two titles that she holds.

She lives in New Zealand with her husband, their three kids, and their two fur babies.

These are my words, not hers, but I would say that she is beloved on social media for just all of the words she shares about all things, motherhood, relationship, friendship, and parenting.

And of course, her many books.

I think she has 17.

I asked her about that in our interview today.

She has collectively sold over 300,000 copies of those many books worldwide, and I promise you they would be a sweet gift for yourself or for any mom in your life.

I hope you guys love this conversation.

It's not all about poetry or how to write poetry, not all.

It really is just about motherhood and what Jess's motherhood has looked like.

And how it has played out on the page, and then publicly as she has vulnerably, just really decided to share it with all of us.

Jess, I am so excited to have you here with me today, and I'll share a little bit more when we get into it because I feel like I've, you know, air quotes known you for a long time via your words on the internet, but why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself a little bit more, share whatever you wanna share with everyone about you, about what you do, then we'll start chatting.

Sounds good.

Thanks for having me.

I'm Jess ish.

I am a mom of three.

I have a 3-year-old, a 7-year-old, and an 8-year-old.

My oldest two were born a year apart.

I live in New Zealand and I started, my writing journey to becoming an author, when my second born was about six months old.

Okay.

And like I said in the intro, I'm sure you guys are familiar with her from her writing, right?

It has been, I don't wanna like minimize it, but all over the internet.

Obviously you have published books and we can talk about all those.

But for, for years, I found you first from her view from home.

Yeah.

I'm sure that you know what I'm talking about.

Yeah.

And I had thrown a few pieces in there and towards them, and not a poet like you, but I love to write as well.

And so that is actually where I first found you.

How did it act?

Yeah, I know, and it was sweet.

I think we, you know, communicated a little bit.

Via that, connection way back when, 10 years, nine years, eight years.

I don't know when it was.

How did that actually start for you though?

Did you just start kind of sharing your words?

Obviously you were in motherhood as well, so you had a lot of material I'm sure you were drawing from in your regular life.

But how did that all kind of kick off and start for you?

I think like when I, when I think back to it now, I think I was looking for a village of sorts.

Like I had a village, but there were, you know, at some point it kind of feels like this big welcome party for the baby, for someone new, but then also that someone new is you and then all of a sudden the party's over the message messages kind of stop the meals, stop the visitors stop.

And I kind of felt like.

There was something missing.

Like I didn't feel like I'd really been asked, how are you doing?

And I just had so much going on in my head.

I was definitely battling with postnatal anxiety as well.

And over time, one of the things that really helped me process all of that was writing.

'cause I've always enjoyed writing, but I didn't really share my writing with people.

And, drew, my husband actually said to me, why don't you.

Start an account and just start sharing some of the poems that you've written online.

You know, like just put it out into the universe and, and see what happens.

Make some connections.

And it was the best advice.

I mean, it was really scary because some of those earlier poems were pretty vulnerable and quite raw.

But it was much easier to share then because I had no followers.

So it was kind of like, be what you will.

And if someone feels how I feel, then it's meant to be, you are meant to see these words, we are meant to connect.

And it was a very authentic and organic way to, I guess, build this global village, if you will.

And it was like therapy to me because on the one hand.

It's very cathartic, being able to write.

But then on the other hand, I had all these other moms saying same, and me too.

And I've never, no one's ever spoken about this before.

Do you feel, so you, I had Hannah Rosenberg on here a while ago, and she writes, about all these seasons that you do as well, and we were kind of talking about how you kind of mentioned this, it can be.

Tough sometimes, especially as your audience has grown and now people are certainly gonna see what you put out there.

How it can be hard sometimes because what you write and what you experience is not necessarily always what someone else feels or experiences.

And so I do think it's such a vulnerable thing to say, Hey, this is how I experienced the transition from one to two.

Mm-hmm.

But that doesn't necessarily.

Mean that you have to experience it that way.

So do you feel like you ever shared stuff and felt like you had to defend it or you learned pretty quickly?

I'm gonna share and this is my perspective and it doesn't really matter if everybody agrees with it.

Yeah, definitely.

There are still those moments that I have now.

But I try not to sugarcoat things too much because I feel like.

If you write from just a perspective of wanting to be relatable, then I don't think you're ever really gonna reach even just that one person.

Like really reach into their heart and and speak their words for them if you're trying to hide behind relatability and being safe.

So I always kind of went with the mindset of This was my experience.

These are my truths.

There's no right or wrong.

I'm not saying this had to be your truth either.

This is just what happened with me, and if it reaches someone who can resonate with this, then I hope it helps you.

And so I would kind of always put that in my caption.

Um, and then sometimes, you know, someone would say to me.

I'm gonna buy your book from one mom to a mother and, and give it to my pregnant friend.

And I'd sort of be like, oh, great.

Maybe just get her to read it after she's had the baby.

Yeah, I have that one.

And it's true.

Some, some of that might feel a little not, uh, I don't know that scary is the word, but, but yeah, it's very raw, right?

Very raw.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I mean like if, if I had read some of those poems when I was pregnant, I possibly would've felt a little bit apprehensive, I won't lie.

But having read and I have read some beautiful pieces, you know, early postpartum of other people's, and gosh, I was so thankful for those words because it's not to say.

Oh, this is shit.

This is so hard.

You know, what have I done?

Like it's nothing like that.

Like I think everybody knows that at our core we have this overwhelming love, but it doesn't mean to say that there aren't challenges that come with it.

And if we are to bottle all of those feelings up and not address what some of these challenges are and be able.

Voice them with someone else and unpack it, then it's gonna be a really lonely journey.

And just feeling understood and seen in motherhood.

Honestly, it's, it's like therapy and that was what I realized I needed more than another parenting book.

It was just to unpack some of the emotions that come with it.

Well, it's interesting 'cause you said when you started that you felt like the village disappeared.

Right?

And so it's an interesting thing to consider going and finding it online because you need real people in your life as well.

But I do think that that privilege.

Of, of finding that community online and finding the people who are unpacking in the same way, like to use your vocabulary.

It can be so valuable for some of that loneliness that you talked about too.

I always say, I feel like in that first year, postpartum months, like 3, 4, 5, can feel so, so lonely because everybody shows up in the first ones.

They're checking in on you and everyone knows you're not sleeping and, and they just know it's hard, right?

Like that's an accepted truth, about those initial weeks.

But then when you move past those, you're still not sleeping.

It's still really hard.

But all of the, the check-in stop.

And so I always think those months can feel really lonely because you as a mom still are saying, I am very much in this still, but nobody's really checking.

Spin on me anymore 'cause I don't have, you know, quote unquote a newborn anymore.

And so I those months, those nights can just like feel the longest and feel the darkest and you just feel so kind of unseen sometimes in those months.

Yeah, a hundred percent.

And I, and I felt that too.

And I also kind of felt like I wrote this poem, it was probably a little bit passive aggressive because I was like, I hope my mom doesn't see this, but I also hope she does see this.

And it was entitled, can you ask me Who I'm Too?

And I guess it was just like, I kind of felt like I really needed my mom, you know?

I really, really needed her.

And I'm not saying she wasn't there.

She was, she was incredible.

But it was very much about the babies, you know, like.

I had two babies, you know, essentially with them being born so close together and sometimes I felt like I just wanted to say something or you know, just be emotional and I kind of like get halfway through something.

And then one of them would, I don't know, kick off and then her attention would be diverted.

And I just wanted to be like, it's fine, it's fine.

I'm talking, listen to me.

And she'd be like, oh, we'll come back to that.

And then she'd deal with them and then we would never come back to it.

And I guess like, I know that sounds like such a silly little thing maybe, but I remember how it felt and I felt like I was just fading into the background of my own life.

And I don't know, it just, I need, I still needed my mom, you know?

I needed her to be there for me as well.

Oh, you know the videos that go around where it says like everyone else is coming to see the baby, but he was coming to see me or she was, and it's a mom or a dad coming straight to their baby.

I know.

I'm like a disaster every time I watch those because there is something to be said for still having that person who's like, Hey, you're my baby, and I. I care about you and I wanna know how you are.

And almost not like it's this tiered thing and, and they're first and you're second.

But just to have someone care that deeply, even if you're 31 years old or however old you are, when that, when that is going on, I, I love those videos and they make, make me cry my little heart out.

Yeah, I know.

Me too.

It's, it's people remembering not just to hold the baby, but to hold the mother.

It's important.

It's really important because we do, we need that support so we can be the best version of ourselves that we can be for our children.

We need to be lifted up.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So you have, obviously this is kind of, we do Birth Baby Motherhood podcast.

You mentioned you had your first two a year apart.

You were writing before that, I'm assuming though you hadn't really shared a ton, right?

Mm-hmm.

Do I have that right on the timeline?

Do you feel like there was a specific, you know, we hear vocabulary like Birth is transformative, or those like that.

Stuff really changes you or a new version of you.

Do you feel like that was true for you?

And, and then it kind of, I'm gonna use a dramatic word, like unlocked, you're writing for you or open up all this new stuff and that was part of, oh, I have a lot to share now because I've just gone through this big transformation.

Was there a specific moment in your bursts or in your postpartums that you're just can remember so clearly of, I have to write this down and I have to get this out?

Hmm.

Oh, there was so many, really, I mean, I've written about so many different aspects of what I went through in those seasons and you know, I'm still writing now, although not as often, which is interesting.

But I think a really big one for me was not being able to breastfeed my son.

And, you know, it was, we tried for two weeks.

It was just traumatic.

It was so painful.

I'd seen.

Countless lactation consultants and it just wasn't working.

And it, and I beat myself up for it.

I felt so guilty.

And then I was trying to unpack kind of like, why do I feel so, so bad here to give him his first bottle of formula?

You know, like, why do I feel terrible?

I was pumping pink milk.

Oh, it was a whole, it was a whole thing to, you know, toe curling latches.

And I started to write about how I feel like.

Society's expectations are kind of what fails us.

It's not us failing.

No one's journey is the same, especially no one's feeding journey.

But that put me into a pretty dark place.

And it wasn't until my son was fine on the bottle, I got to move past that, that I became, I just a much better mother.

Like when he would wake up instead of me feeling like.

Oh no, he's, he's awake.

I've gotta feed him that dread that would sit in.

I was like, no, that's cool.

I'll just go.

I'll go get his formula.

I'm just gonna move past this.

This is what we have to do.

And then funnily enough, I had my second and I breastfed her until she was, I think 14 or 15 months.

And there were no issues.

And so, you know, like, I guess I, I wrote a little bit about that because I could see how many moms had gone into a really dark place because they thought this was gonna be their journey and it didn't end up being their journey.

And it's just, it's really hard to, to grapple with that.

I feel like a lot.

Motherhood is like that.

Like a lot of the poetry that you have written and shared is hitting on those parts where it wasn't the way that we thought it would be, that doesn't necessarily mean the way it is is is worse or better, but just us having to wrestle with the disconnect between the way we thought something would be and the way that it is, and sometimes.

It ends up being like, better than we expected.

And so then your, your gift is like writing about that joy and that that indescribable, I didn't even know it could be like this.

then I think you also have the gift of writing about the, oh, this is not how I expected in kind of a, a, I'll say bad way.

also being able to write to that.

So I think it's the reason.

If you want my opinion on why people love you so much, I think it is because you're able, you're riding to both of those things and all of us are going through them all the time of, wow, this is so much better.

Wow, this is so much harder.

And just kind of like grappling, grappling with that all of the time.

Mm. Yeah.

I think like the highs and the lows, and I used to see just so many accounts that were kind of like, I guess that mummy blogger aesthetic.

I mean, as soon as I. I had babies.

My whole feed was just filled with it.

The internet knows, and I, I just kind of remember coming away from a bit of a doom scrolling session, just feeling a little bit less than, like, I felt like I really don't have it together.

Like these people at the time, I wasn't thinking about the fact that their mess was swept outta the frame.

I wasn't thinking about the fact that they might've had help or, you know, I, I was just looking at it thinking, oh, my life should be looking like this.

You know, I should have a. Fresh face of makeup at seven in the morning and be out walking the kids and the dog and you know, and for me at the time, if I'm honest, like getting out the door was a huge achievement for me.

I felt like it was really hard to just get out the door.

I had a thousand things I felt like I needed to bring, like I felt like I had to bring half the house with me when I was going anywhere with my two.

And honestly, like even in the car, I'd be like.

Like coming towards a red light thinking, oh no, oh no, oh no.

Like one of them get away, kick off.

I'm gonna to turn around and go home.

Like, everything just felt so hard and heightened and everything had to be pre-planned.

And it was just, it's a lot.

It's a lot from going from I'm just gonna grab my keys in my bag and walk out the door.

You know?

It's a lot.

And so I try to talk about.

You know, the big things, but also the little moments and spaces in between as well.

And sort of like capture a few of those feelings just to, I don't know, honor all the, all the seasons and all the moments we go through.

I love that part of it.

I saw a, a real, you, this was a while ago that you posted in and, and it had a question like, what do I write about?

Or something like that.

And then you flash to just all these different clips of just life and you said everyday moments or everything in between or something.

And I think that that is the stuff that hits us so much.

As mamas is remembering like the little backpack you wore on your first day of school.

You know, just these tiny things and suddenly you have put words to them and turned it into a poem and your mom heart is like, oh yeah, I, that tiny little detail actually is this massive little story that I hold in my hands, but.

I don't really have words for it, or no one else really understands it.

And then you find out that all the other moms, or a lot of them do.

And so when you point out like the crumbs in the car seat, or not being able to grab your keys again, it just, I think it just hits, so easily for so many, and they are tiny things.

We're not, we're not sharing those things and preparing, you know, our pregnant friend.

For those little moments, but they are, those are what make a lie.

Like those are what make motherhood really like, yes, birth is transformative, yes, breastfeeding is like this huge thing, but all those little moments are what, what make, really what?

Like make that story for us.

So you just do such a lovely job of capturing those little like breadcrumbs in the middle, in the middle of all of it.

I wanted to ask you a question, and this is more just.

You and your husband and how you guys work through this, but I get asked a lot about making how to decide to have more kids.

I remember you originally saying you were just gonna have two, or you had your two really close together and it was like, I can't, I can't possibly imagine.

This would've been earlier on when you were riding having another, how did you.

Again, this is just like almost practical advice.

How did you guys end up deciding to have a third, and how did you get your heart there after it being Yeah.

Really hard and really in the, you know, in the trenches for a while.

I, I sometimes think that our brains trick us.

And they like make us forget how difficult like sleep deprivation can be, which is interesting.

Oh, they

totally do.

Hundred percent.

It's funny, all I have to do is look back on some of my poems and go, oh yeah, that's right.

That was, that was a hard time.

And not have done it again.

But no, my like it's weird.

I had the two very close together because we thought we only wanted two.

We wanted to do it that way.

And then, I dunno, it must have been two years later.

I just started to get this feeling of our family just isn't complete.

There's, there was just something, and I can't describe it, it was like a niggling thing and I, I sat with it for a good year because I was like, is this me just missing the younger versions of my kids and wanting to go back with rested eyes or is this me?

Really wanting to introduce another family member because with that there's finances, there's a bigger house potentially.

I mean, not for everyone, but we needed that.

We needed a bigger car.

Well, I'm very, very practical and I also think about how much time can I physically and emotionally give to each child, child, and feel okay with that because you know, you get to a point where you do stop.

Making a family and you start raising that family.

So I was like, am I at that point?

Because I'm gonna go right back.

And I don't know, I don't really know what it was.

I mean, my husband was okay with just two.

But then, you know, he never went and got the snip and he talked about doing it for a long time and it never happened.

And so we just came to the decision that we were like, yeah, no, let's do it.

Let's have a third.

We, we just felt like that's what we wanted to do.

But then I had two miscarriages and that was pretty awful.

And I remember the second time I saw the line starting to fade and I said to Drew, I don't think I can do this again.

I think we try one more time, but if, you know, I lose this one, that's me.

I don't think I, my heart can take it.

And then we had our rainbow baby and that was Heidi.

So she came along after that.

And then just gave you lots of more material.

Not that she was a content baby, but you know, when you're in it, you have a lot of material.

Yeah.

Well, that's true.

I actually struggled to write about those days.

Now I, I often, I, I kind of think I'm not going to try really, because the time that I was in it was when I could express myself in the most raw format.

You kind of go back with, I guess, a different view when you're looking back.

So I'm grateful that I wrote as much as I did in that time.

But also it's really amazing to read back some of those pieces and go, wow, I don't feel like that now at all.

And I think that's really important to highlight because it just shows that there is that light at the end of the tunnel.

Like when you are in the depth of postpartum, for example, you've had a third baby and you feeling because you.

Mothering across coffee tables and you're not there as much as you'd like to be and you can't attend the sports thing.

And it's really just a season.

And before you know it, you just get into this routine and it's, it's all working.

It becomes your new normal so quickly, but when you are in it, it, it feels like foreign and it's scary and you think, oh my God.

What have I done?

You know, can I be there for everyone?

But three for us is my, it's my, as I say, this heart has been my happiest and we are in a really good place.

Do you feel like that feeling that you had before Heidi went away after, like you, that feeling of, oh, I just dunno if there's one more out there for us.

Would you say you're someone who had that?

Oh yeah, we're finished now feeling after Heidi.

Definitely Drew got the snip two weeks later.

Yeah.

And also that he was studying too.

Yeah.

Okay.

Well actually speaking of Drew, this is one of my questions 'cause I love when you write about marriage too and kind of that like I see you in the middle of all of this so I was just curious if those types of poems and things that you write kind of more about Drew and being in it with him, are those.

Triggered by like specific moments or just almost more the internal dialogue that's going on in your head of, of how you two are passing around each other and taking care of the kids.

And does, is that just stuff that kind of just Yeah.

Comes to you in the midst of doing this together with him?

I think like most of my pieces will always come from a specific moment.

But you know, like the ones to do with marriage and.

Kind of feeling like roommates or ships in the night.

I feel like there's ebbs and flows of that, and I could go back and read any one of those poems to do with marriage and feel like maybe I can connect with that now.

Because, you know, seven, eight, and three, it's still very chaotic.

We're still very busy.

There are still missed kisses out the door, and I feel like a lot of the conversations that we have are very much like project management.

You know, it's, it's really hard to still find time for just us.

And that can be really hard, you know, it kind of feels like that.

We've got that friendship there.

We still know how to make each other laugh.

He'll still call me in the car just to chat, but we've just had to pivot because we are just so needed in this season of parenting right now.

I just try to remember there will be a day that.

We might not even get a phone call from them when they're older.

You know, we might not hear from them for a couple of days at a time, which makes me feel like, oh my God, I can't even imagine that Sometimes I do have to kind of put myself in the future a bit to realize that this is fleeting and to not feel like, I don't know, to, to just not get too down about it because I know that we'll get our time back, but it's just not meant to be right now.

It makes me.

Just think of that idea of like, this is our season, but it is a season and there will be another season.

'cause you do, I think sometimes in parenthood and motherhood, you do feel like wherever your eye is gonna be forever, right?

You can experience that when you're up at night with these babies and, and intellectually, you know, like someday they'll sleep or someday something will change.

But it is hard to believe it sometimes.

But I think that's interesting too, what you said about.

Like you can read a parenting poem and it still can resonate even if it was from when you had two under 1-year-old or whatever.

But how often what you were feeling as a mother like that, you can't write to that anymore.

And I think the, I mean, that makes sense in my head of the parenting challenges.

Look different as our kids grow, but are are similar, if that makes sense.

Yeah.

But those motherhood ones, there's very specific kind of feelings as you go through some of these like seasons of your kids growing and stuff like that.

One of, one of the things that I love so much now about the kids getting older at seven and eight, I recently went on a trip just myself and the two older ones and, it was so nice because it was the first time I realized I was doing things with them and not just for them.

You kind of get to this point where you can sit back and watch them on the park, or you can join in in an activity and you're not too worried about like, you know, what they're up to because they're a little bit more, I don't know, just experienced in life and you just, I don't know.

You just kind of get to that point where things just feel easier and.

Everything kind of lifts a little bit and I just really enjoyed that because that anxiety, which I've always kind of carried, to be honest, I've always had that like low level worry.

I don't think it ever leaves any of us ever.

But it was nice to just kind of sit back and be like, oh, we are doing things together.

I'm going on a trip actually today with my oldest two only who are currently nine and seven, and I've never done this before, so it's funny you just brought that up.

I keep thinking about the flight, like, oh, they just, I'll just be sitting by them, but they, they won't need me.

They'll read or they'll watch a tap.

Like I just can't even really wrap my head around it.

'cause this is the first time I will have done, you know, more than a date.

A date or something with one of them where I go and I get to just.

Be with them instead of take care of them.

Like that's so PT, what you just said about being with them as opposed to taking care of them.

Mm-hmm.

And I think even my brain goes, ah, and that also can be like this transition and this emotional feeling too of, you don't need me, like you used to need me.

And that kind of makes me sad, but also happy.

So again, like just one of those things you can, you could write into again.

Because it just keeps, it just keeps changing.

Yeah.

It does.

It does.

Do you ever have, or I guess have you ever had up to this point as well, things that are just.

Too much to write about.

Like you just thought, I can't, I can't put words to this, or I don't want to, or that feels like too tender or maybe a tag onto that of of moments where you just think, these are just for us and I'm not actually gonna put words to them and share them with the world.

And kind of how do you, I think parents are making that choice just in general, you know, of how much they share of their children or their lives like online.

So.

Do you ever run into that, even as you think about how to write or what to share and what's Just for you or just for you and Drew?

Definitely anything I write from a marriage perspective, I'll send to Drew first to make sure he's comfortable with me sharing it.

And I send it to him because it's for him.

So it's, we always have that communication before I share something like that.

He's never said no though, because I, I don't feel like they sort of tip the scales to.

With the kids.

It's funny because I don't really share a lot about my life online.

I used to when they were really little, I jump on my stories a lot, share a lot about just my day to day.

I don't feel the need to do that anymore.

I'm also very aware of, you know, them being online.

I've talked to them about it.

They obviously know what I do.

But I. I keep their photos now like away because there was a time where someone actually said hello to Harry when we were out.

This was years ago, but it kind of stopped me in my tracks a bit and I was like, no, that's weird for him.

And that's weird for me.

So I made a few changes with that.

And then also, you know, like I've been very open about.

My journey with, A DHD and OCDI guess to a point.

But I've also tried to be an advocate for Harry who was diagnosed, with A DHD and autism and Dyspraxia a few years ago, but without making it like a theme, you know, I don't wanna send to everything.

This is his life.

But I think it's also very important that.

As parents, we can kind of band together.

It is a very challenging and extremely rewarding journey, but it's so nice to have that support from other parents.

And so what I have shared, I actually shared a poem this morning, called A Mind, like Mind and it's Harry speaking.

Um, but you know, through my words, to me and so many parents have come back to me and they're like.

This made me cry.

This has helped me understand my child, or this is for me when I was little.

So if anything, I think like maybe that theme I'm a little bit careful with because I don't wanna overstep that boundary into what's personal for him.

And I do try and keep it, generic to a point.

But at the same time, I think that he would be very, very grateful that I have.

Spend so much time understanding what makes him tick and working through things with him, and then helping other parents hopefully be able to do the same.

Thanks for sharing that.

I just think it's such an interesting thing to, to make any part of yourself for speaking to you a public, like for public consumption, whether that be words or family or.

Some other form of work that you do.

So it's such an interesting thing for all of us to think about, how do we share our kids?

How are we sharing what we do?

Where are our boundaries?

And they're different for everybody.

So I think there's that vulnerability that's so, so valuable and that dance between this is his story or her story versus this is mine as a mother, can be so, so tough to navigate for anyone, regardless of whether they're a published author, you know?

Just a mom online, it's really hard sometimes to decide is this going to, yeah, is this, is this her story and I'm sharing it, but it's also, I just think it's complicated.

I can't even formulate my question because I just think it's such a complicated space.

One thing that I do is I ask myself, if my kids are gonna read this one day, how are they gonna feel?

And I know that there are poems in there where they might think oof fun, found postpartum really hard.

Yeah.

But I think, that'll definitely come through.

But I think the love will shine through even harder.

I, I truly believe that.

And I think if they become parents themselves one day, I'm almost certain that they will appreciate, hopefully many of those poems.

But I think just going back to the what we choose to share and what we don't choose to share, I think like in today's.

World of content creation.

It's hard because back in the day as an author, you didn't have to be so front facing and you didn't have to make reels and point and you know, like I'm not very good with technology, so having to like do all the stuff and learn how to use cap card and hip, I'm just like, oh, I just wanna write.

I don't wanna, well, you

should.

That's all you need to do.

Clearly it's working, Jess,

not my thing.

But you do kind of these days, like as a creative, you need to be online and and doing this stuff, and it's not necessarily everyone's strong point.

It's definitely not mine.

I feel like I have to make myself.

Do a reading.

And even though I do love doing it, I always feel a bit awkward.

And yeah, it's interesting 'cause there's some incredible writers out there and I think sometimes their work gets buried because they're not making reels and they're not, and it's a shame, but I think that's just the way it can be now.

That is a shame, especially because if we think about writing specifically, my guess is a lot of those people, their choice is not to be in front of a camera.

Like they like the written word for a reason.

That's where they feel safe is on the page.

So it is, it is just counterintuitive to then say, and now you need to show up online and do video.

And I'm sure there's book tours and all these other things that you've needed to do as well to be successful.

But it is a shame that that.

If you aren't really good at that, that it could actually be to your detriment when, when you do have a gift.

'cause I'm sure that does happen too.

Yeah.

Yeah, sure.

That does happen to people.

Okay, so I counted on your website before we started that you have 17 published books.

Is that number right?

Or 16?

About to be 17.

Have you ever counted,

I don't

your own?

Oh my gosh, I don't think it's

that

many.

Well, one is a triple set.

Some of the kids one, you know like the one kids one is a set of three.

Oh my goodness.

I have your three that you originally pub, uh, like the one that you mentioned earlier.

I'm blinking on the name right now.

From LA mom to another.

Got the trio that I've got.

Beautiful chaos.

They bloom and in the children's books right by my heart, my superpowers, the three Petrick and George.

So we're at 10.

I've got my dreams coming out and then I've got, you'll always be my baby.

Oh my gosh.

You might be what?

Don't

worry.

Don't worry you guys.

We'll link 'em all.

It's very impressive.

Very impressive.

First of all, tell us a little bit about they bloom because of you, because I know that one is available for pre-order now.

So what could someone expect inside of that one?

This one is a follow on from uh, my first one, which is beautiful chaos.

And it's another collection of poems, but it's more.

Through the seasons.

There's still ones in there, that would relate to new moms as well.

But there's a lot of poems from, the perspective of a mom of three, kids starting school and just some of those seasons that find us later with some of the deeper questions that come about, as our kids grow older.

And yeah, again, it's just another book that I really hope that moms pick up and just feel seen and understood and, and just howled by the words in it.

Okay, that's perfect.

We, I will share all jokes aside, not all 17 links, but we'll share to Jess's website where you can find, all of them.

I wanted to ask you one last question.

When a woman or someone online, I guess, tells you that your poems make them feel seen, what does that like do inside of your heart?

What does that make you feel?

Oh, it just, it's encouraging.

I think like one of the reasons I started doing this was for this purpose, and so I created, like on the days that I feel a little bit like disheartened or maybe unmotivated to continue in the space, I'll go to my album and it's where I screenshotted all of those beautiful messages where I see how much some of the books have helped.

Mothers or even just them and their relationships helps them understand what their children are going through.

Like it's incredible and I feel really honored.

Yeah.

Yeah, it is.

It's a privilege, isn't it?

All right.

Why don't I know that we just talked about your books.

Remind everyone, your website and your social media handles.

I know you don't.

I don't.

Are you on TikTok?

You can just share.

Yeah, I, I know you're on Instagram.

Okay.

You can find me on, most socials under Jess ish, and then my website is jessica ish.com.

Okay.

And we will put all of that in the show notes, like I mentioned.

And then last question, just for fun, what is something in your life, big, small, anything that is bringing you just a ton of joy right now?

Oh.

A bit of songwriting.

I'm really enjoying that.

Yeah, it's, it's, I've got a couple of lullaby I did a while ago, but sometimes I just write little lyrics and make little tunes just for myself.

Dunno what I'm gonna, I'm probably not gonna do anything with it, but it brings me a lot of joy.

Do

you play an instrument as well?

No, I'm trying to get my kids into instruments at the moment.

I do a little bit of singing, but I would not.

Call myself a singer, just out

so we can expect reels of you singing in the next year, singing your songs.

I can't wait.

Okay.

So anyone in New Zealand who can play the guitar, the piano she needs you sounds like too, so it's a little shout out for everyone.

All right.

Well then I guess good luck with songwriting and this next book.

I hope that it finds all the right people and yeah, that it just continues to bless all of these mamas and all these families.

Thanks for being here with me.

Thank so

much.

Thanks

for chat.

Good to talk to you.

Bye

bye.

Thank you so much for listening to the Lo and Behold podcast.

I hope there was something for you in today's episode that made you think, made you laugh or made you feel seen.

For show notes and links to the resources, freebies, or discount codes mentioned in this episode, please head over to lo and behold podcast.com.

If you aren't following along yet, make sure to tap, subscribe, or follow in your podcast app so we can keep hanging out together.

And if you haven't heard it yet today, you're doing a really good job.

A little reminder for you before you go, opinions shared by guests of this show are their own, and do not always reflect those of myself in the Labor Mama platform.

Additionally, the information you hear on this podcast or that you receive via any linked resources should not be considered medical advice.

Please see our full disclaimer at the link in your show notes.