Motherhood is all consuming.

Having babies, nursing, feeling the fear of loving someone that much, and there's this baby on your chest, and boom, your entire life has changed.

It's a privilege of being your child's safest space and watching your heart walk around outside of your body.

The truth is.

I can be having the best time being a mom one minute, and then the next, I'm questioning all my life choices.

I'm Lo Mansfield, your host of the Lo and Behold podcast, mama of four Littles, former labor and postpartum RN, CLC, and your new best friend in the messy middle space of all the choices you are making in pregnancy, birth, and motherhood.

If there is one thing I know after years of delivering babies at the bedside and then having, and now raising those four of my own, it is that there is no such thing as a best way to do any of this.

And we're leaning into that truth here with the mix of real life and what the textbook says, expert Insights and practical applications.

Each week we're making our way towards stories that we participate in, stories that we are honest about, and stories that are ours.

This is the lo and behold podcast.

I am so excited to put this guest in front of you in this episode.

Dr. Tracy is a clinical psychologist, a couples therapist, and a sought after, and I would say Beloved on Instagram where I've gotten to communicate with her and get to know her relationship X. As well.

She is the creator of Be Connected Digital, where she teaches people all over the world how to have healthier relationships.

Her work has been featured in the New York Times in Forbes and in time.

Her research has appeared in peer reviewed academic journals.

Dr. Tracy has a book coming out and that is what our conversation focuses around.

It is called you, your husband and his mother, and it's gonna be released.

I didn't sign up for this.

We got to talk back in that season of releasing that book as well.

I loved that book, so I encourage you to check that one out too.

She's the host of a top 100 parenting podcast, it's called Dear Dr. Tracy, we also have an episode back in her archives together where I got to be the guest with her on her show.

She's the owner of a mental health clinic called Integrated Wellness, and then she lives in Ottawa with her husband and her two children.

This conversation.

Is just, it's a good one.

So many of us, the vast majority of us, are gonna run into the dynamic of mother-in-law, daughter-in-law.

And as we talk about in this conversation, maybe as you already know, in your real life, this dynamic invites, challenges for a lot of people.

And I don't think those challenges are.

Inherently bad or we should be worried about them or, or dooming ourselves to what is or isn't going to happen.

But I do think it's really nice to know this is something that is pretty universally gone through for daughter-in-laws and mother-in-laws, and that there are ways to navigate this and have really healthy, good relationships with our mother-in-laws.

So I hope you guys enjoy everything that she has to share with us today.

Dr. Tracy, thank you so much for being here with me today.

I am very excited about the topics that we're gonna get into.

Why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself a little bit more to everyone, and then we can just get chatting.

Yeah, absolutely.

And let me pause by expressing my gratitude to get to sit with you again.

You were on my podcast several years ago and then now to reverse the mic.

It just feels really fun.

So I am a psychologist and couples therapist.

I always start by saying, that's my work life.

But I'm also a mom to two kids, and I own my business with my husband.

So if I know what it means to balance the full load and to have boundaries and then to really have to work on communication with your husband, being in business together is definitely part of that journey.

But one of the reasons I'm doing this work is because I remember in my own early days of postpartum and really feeling like we weren't talking about.

The real struggles in our relationships, the everyday moments, the moments where we say, I didn't sign up for this.

Or the moments where we feel so resentful towards our partner or towards an extended family member.

And it was then that I started to create on social media to create workshops for people and just really to make the skills and tools I teach the couples and individuals in my therapy room more accessible to people all over the world.

Yeah,

I feel like.

Therapists like yourself are so valuable to us.

And I'm talking about this current generation, including myself, our younger, our youngers as well.

But because I feel like our generation, my generation is in this place now where we're like, whoa, we have so much we need to talk about.

Our parents weren't talking about it.

And so I think a lot of us were, or maybe still are looking around going, okay, where are the resources to talk now?

Because I've real, I'm realizing we need to be doing a better job at.

Navigating our relationships, talking about the hard things, all of that stuff.

And so to me, I'm like, oh, you're in such an ideal position to come up this last decade or so.

I'm not sure, like specifically when you would say you started your more like social platform work as well, because I feel like.

The environment is just ripe for people like you to come in and help people like me

navigate all of this stuff.

And, and it's interesting, my children are 10 and eight.

Mm-hmm.

Of moms who were all due at the same time.

And there wasn't this.

Really loud space on social media, of education, of who's bottle feeding, who's breastfeeding.

Mm-hmm.

When do you do solids?

How do you do it?

And, and I've seen as the years have gone by just the rise in anxiety even inside of us, this constant questioning of are we doing it right?

But then there's another mix in this.

That's kind of where I come in as a psychologist and couples therapists, which is how our language.

And understanding of relationships have changed.

And so more people will start saying things like, I set a boundary and this person didn't respect it.

And a lot of my work is about teaching people what is actually a boundary, or they'll use things like so and so is manipulating me.

Okay, let's break that down and really look at what that word means and what's happening because our language shapes our experience.

And if we're not careful, we can then get caught up in it.

I immediately think of this couple that I sat with once many years ago, and she said in session, see Dr. Tracy, he's gaslighting me right in the middle of session.

And it just was like dropping a grenade into session of like, oh, this just exploded and it was.

On one hand acknowledging the cycle and the pattern this couple was getting stuck in, and then also peeling it back and saying, okay, wait.

We need to look at what this word actually means and how this word is being misused.

And how here from an outside perspective is what I see happening between you two.

And that's tricky.

Yeah, and I do think the, back to that idea of social media too, it's been valuable.

We can find people, we can find resources, but it also is putting a lot in our heads that maybe we're then.

Misinformed about or need to dig deeper on.

Like, I know I too am like, oh, so and so's gaslighting, or I'm gas and it's like we throw these terms around now that have become really, prolific, if you will, or spicy sometimes too.

'cause they have this kind of.

Duality to them or what they can mean.

And then we're, I think sometimes using them using language, like you said, without kind of fully understanding what that language means or what the implications are for the relationship we're talking about or, or whatever it is that we're using that vocabulary inside of.

So one thing I think that is valuable with all of this as well is the part because this is actually I. I better say this is, this I feel like is a good segue, but I don't want it to be a negative segue into this mother-in-law relationship, which is what your new book coming out very soon is about.

I think this whole idea of communication and expectation and interpretation is.

A very large part of the mother-in-law relationship.

So why don't you just kind of briefly tell us a little bit about this book that you're releasing so soon.

Kind of the why it's needed type thing, and then I wanna just get into the mother-in-law relationship a little bit more.

Yeah, absolutely.

So my book is titled you, your husband and his mother, right.

And.

One of the, whenever I share the topic people or the, the title of the book, people go, oh yes, this is such a good one.

Mm-hmm.

And.

The reason this book is coming out and, and many people have asked, well, can I use this if it's my mom or if it's a sister-in-law or father-in-law?

And the answer is yes.

So I've designed a five step method.

It's my vault method, and I've been using this with couples and individuals in my therapy room.

For years, and all of these steps are made to help you create the relationship that you want with extended family members while building this safe, secure, and protected marriage and partnership.

Because what so often ends up happening is we don't know.

Who communicates how to communicate, how to express these things to extended family members so that our marriage is protected so that we feel like a solid team, that we feel like we're on the same page.

And also too, so that we're protecting our chosen family and the children that we're having over the feelings of extended family members.

And so I, I've received the comment a few times.

Why, why did you not write this in other dynamics?

And the reason for this is because one of the most common places of conflict that shows up is between the mother-in-law.

And the daughter-in-law.

Mm-hmm.

It's a much higher percentage compared to, say, the son-in-law and his mother-in-law.

Mm-hmm.

And the tensions that I talk about in the book.

So why do we have this conflict?

And not everybody, and I want to emphasize this though, not everybody has conflict.

Mm-hmm.

And if you are in a good place with your mother-in-law, this is still a book for you.

Because we know that when you have more resources and tools, you're gonna keep that relationship solid and strong.

Here's what tends to happen is that there's this unspoken tension that shows up between a mother-in-law and a daughter-in-law.

The reality is today, as women, as mothers, we are doing things differently than.

Previous generations we're parenting differently.

We're navigating the mental low differently We're we're doing work life, whatever this looks like differently, we're in our relationships in such a different way.

And this then creates tension because a mother-in-law will then think.

Well, did I do it wrong?

Was my way wrong?

Mm-hmm.

Or they come in with good intentions and they offer advice, which might come from a good intention place.

They offer advice, they tell you how you should do things, or they say dismissive comments like, well, I didn't do it that way and my kids turned out fine.

And so we've got this friction between two women.

And the other layer in here then is this element of insecurity.

A mother who has defined her role largely as a mother then feels insignificant.

Mm-hmm.

What role do I play here?

Here's my son.

He's off building his family as he should be, but do I still have a role?

And so mothers in-laws struggle with that.

But then the last sort of, not last, but one of the main areas of conflict within this dynamic is that couples don't have the skills and tools to communicate the boundaries.

With respect, with love, to be able to step out of old legacy patterns.

And some of them that I talk about in the book are things like codependency and, and enmeshment, guilt tripping rigidity, control, manipulation.

I talk about all of those in the book so that you and your partner can really identify what are some of these dynamics that are continuing to play out.

But for so many couples, they don't see these dynamics and then they're at war together rather than being on the same page.

Mm-hmm.

I, I find it interesting, well, one, that this dynamic not exists solely between mother-in-law and daughter-in-law, but that it is so much more significant in that relationship versus, like you talked about, like son-in-law, mother-in-law, or

mm-hmm.

You

know, maybe daughter-in-law, father-in-law.

That it is so specific and feels like so universally, almost universally challenging.

Like across cultures.

I think you even mentioned part of that in your book at the beginning where you say, I was overseas, I forget where you were.

And someone made a joke about the mother-in-law and a whole other culture.

Right.

And it's like, this is not specific to being in America or the way we have relationships.

somehow this is, well, not somehow I'm, I'm sure you can explain why, but this is something that really is an experience, I would say probably across the world.

So I know.

Inside of your book as well, you kind of talk about like types of mother-in-laws, types of daughter-in-laws.

And I think that sometimes people say, Hey, don't put me in a box.

Like, you don't get to tell me who I am and how I respond.

But I, I, I personally find that stuff is valuable.

'cause when you understand yourself better, when you understand the person in relationship better than.

I think you can communicate better when you understand like where they're coming from, why they do what they do.

So can you kind of speak to that at all?

I don't want you to like tell us everything inside of the book, but kind of what those types are or how that does play a role in the way you two being the daughter and the mother-in-law are going to communicate and have relationship.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I wanted to acknowledge that we bring within ourselves our own stuff.

We show up in certain ways, and then I talk more in detail about that in chapter three of the book.

Like what is the stuff we bring in?

Mm-hmm.

Our own wounds, our expectations, our desires.

Your partner will bring in theirs as well.

And so I talk about styles, different styles of daughters-in-law, but then I also talk about these different types of mothers in-law and the type.

And I think it's so important to emphasize this.

This is not a diagnosis, and I intentionally didn't use the word narcissist because the last thing I want is for anyone to read this type and then turn to your husband and say, oh, my word, your mother is a narcissist.

Right?

And whether you know that or not, whether your partner knows it or not.

That label isn't always helpful.

Mm-hmm.

But instead, I want us to look at this category of behavior where we can then start to say, oh, okay, this, this is what my mother-in-law does.

This is how she shows up.

I can see who she is, the behavior she does.

And then now, and I give this in the book, particularly, I believe it's in Limits and Boundaries, which is the fourth step of the vault.

Mm-hmm.

Is.

I teach you then specifically how to communicate depending on that specific type.

Mm-hmm.

So I'll walk you through the six types, so I, is that okay?

Yeah, yeah, please.

Okay.

And then for people listening, you know, I want you to know there's more details in the book, And you might even find yourself saying, okay, I think she's this and this.

And that's also possible because we know that we aren't stagnant, right?

We do change over time depending on stressors and events.

So I've divided it into three categories.

One is the internalizers, and this is someone who makes everything about themself.

The externalizer, where they focus outward, tend to do that with criticism and blame.

And then the balancers where they can do both in relationships.

So the internalizers first is the martyr, and the martyr gives endlessly, but it comes with guilt.

And so she'll say something like, nobody appreciates what I do here.

Or she'll say yes to looking after the kids, but then complains to someone else that she is tired and exhausted.

What's important here with this type of mother-in-law is for daughters-in-law to not take on that guilt.

And to know what your boundaries are.

The second type, also an internalizer.

So these two are, internalizers is the victim and the victim believes that the world is out to get them and everything is happening to them.

I you describe, and one of the other pieces I love about my book, and I think you'll remember this from my first book, is I really use case stories.

Mm-hmm.

To help people understand what happens in other people's.

Relationships and these dynamics.

This was a couple that I worked with many years ago where he would drop everything with his partner and his kids and go to mom right away.

'cause she'd say, oh, this isn't working, or, oh, this is happening.

And so right away he'd go.

And the trick with the, the, the tricky part with a victim mother-in-law.

Is that you get pulled into this triangle and you feel like you then have to rescue.

And so it's important to not step into that rescuer role.

So then the next two are under the externalizer category.

So the first one being the blamer and the blamer scapegoats the daughter-in-law.

And we'll say things like, we didn't have these problems before you joined the family and everything.

Is the daughter-in-law's fault?

And then the.

Fourth type is the controller.

And the controller believes that everything is done her way.

So she'll say things like, this is how we've always done it in our family.

It's my way or no way.

You have to drive through the eight hour snowstorm to be here on Christmas at this time.

And then when we look at the balancers, so the fifth type is the er, and this is the mother-in-law where, and I hear this from so many women.

They'll say she lives 20 minutes down the street, but she doesn't come and visit us.

She's not involved in her life.

Or she'll say, I don't wanna be around babies.

I'll come when the kids are older.

Or some other comment like that.

And I think it's so important to understand that that's this withdrawal and avoidance as part of who this person is, rather than what I know many daughter in-laws end up doing, is they'll say, this is about me.

There's something about us.

And then the last type, the sixth type is the supporter.

And the supporter is the one that shows up and says, how can I be here for you?

She doesn't center herself in your story.

She's there to support you.

It still requires healthy communication on both parts.

But oftentimes people will say, you know, I've hit the jackpot with my mother-in-law.

Mm-hmm.

So there's those types of mother-in-laws and then there's, I'm assuming as well, these types of daughter-in-laws.

And so.

I would love to hear about that because that's how I'm thinking about myself right now too.

Because obviously I imagine, I don't wanna say some types match up better than others, but my guess is like I could bring strength and weaknesses into maybe, or better into one relationship versus if my mother-in-law were like another one of the six types.

So how does that kind of work when you add in?

Oh yeah.

Also the daughter-in-law is, has her.

Own way that she moves about the world and has relationships too.

So when it comes to looking at the style of daughter-in-law, I have noticed there are three different styles.

And I think what's important is, again, we can vacillate and move through different ones depending on what's going on in our life.

Depending on are we looking at the early stages of our relationship?

Are we looking at after a marriage, a significant event?

Having a baby.

And so I found that there are a lot of women who fall into the good girl daughter-in-law, and this is someone who's a people pleaser and really focuses on having someone like them.

And you can imagine how exhausting then this can become for a good girl daughter-in-law who then has a martyr mother-in-law, or who then has a mother-in-law who is blaming.

And that becomes exhausting.

So then we have the second style, which is the manager.

And the manager is someone who really thrives on boundaries and structure in their life.

And then what that bumps up against is having another person come into their life.

And they have to be able to co-create and negotiate that, which can be tricky, right?

Because here's this mother who has known her son the best all his life, and then we're trying to co-create what a family looks like.

And then the last style is really that collaborator and the collaborator comes in and can, she can do the self and other, and can hear the feedback, see the good intentions, but then at the same time, isn't stepping into people pleasing or is getting stuck in more of that rigidity.

And I think there's an.

There's something really important about recognizing who we are, and that is not to blame ourselves, and it's not to attack ourselves, but instead it's to say, oh, you know, sometimes there is this part of me that shows up this way and does that really work for me?

And what would be better for me to do this?

And then if we can start recognizing how we then bump up against another person, we can then again say what's gonna feel best for us as a family?

Mm-hmm.

A lot of this makes me think of Enneagram numbers, which I'm sure you know all about as well, and that idea that the Enneagram isn't like.

Or at least how I've interpreted is it's not about telling you like who you are, but more like why do we do what we do?

Right.

The motivation piece.

And so I think, like I've loved that for my marriage.

Like, oh, my husband Kelvin is not doing X, Y, Z to hurt me.

He's doing it because like, this is the way he's been designed now he has to like healthfully live inside of that.

And of course all of us need to grow, in the areas where we're weak and stuff like that.

And so it's been so valuable and I keep thinking about that listening.

To these types and the way they can interact is like understanding maybe why your mother-in-law does what she does or why she is the way she is, and not just being mad about why they do what they do.

Just, it just makes me, this is cheesy, but like that word of having that grace, right.

To to know this isn't about me.

This isn't coming at me because she just doesn't like me or wants.

But there's also probably a reason that she is the way she is, and there's parts of her that have always been this way.

And so I think it's just really valuable to bring that idea of like motivations.

Why people do what they do, not just why they're doing something into these relationships.

For sure.

So I've loved the Enneagram for marriage stuff and I'm like, I need to figure out what my mother, I have two mother-in-laws, 'cause my husband's parents separated.

I'm like, I wonder what their Enneagram numbers are.

How do we put all this together?

'cause I think that's so valuable in this, in yeah.

Navigating any relationship.

It's all about bringing increased awareness to who people are and then creating that sense of differentiation.

That's something I talk a lot about in my first book, which is about I am me and you, are you, and we're both okay.

And it's the idea that, and.

I can't change who another person is, but I can understand them.

Yes, and when I understand them, I have more compassion and I will have more grace.

That doesn't say that I like what they do, right?

If they're hurtful and disrespectful, it doesn't say that.

I'm gonna go and change them.

Instead, I accept and acceptance means I recognize that this is something that's outside of my control.

I recognize that this is another person and I can't control another person.

And that where my agency really comes in is by identifying patterns and then being able to build understanding of who we all are and what we all bring to this dynamic because of course then your husband also brings us in, and I love, I really emphasize this in the book, which is.

Family members are predictable and consistent most times.

Yeah.

And so if you go to the family event and you have this awareness of what type of mother-in-law you have, but then you keep hoping that she'll be different.

That creates more tension and frustration inside of you because you're also looking outward.

I hope she'll be different.

I hope my husband will do this differently, but the tools and the steps in my book are gonna support couples to then have these conversations.

So you're prepared then to show up to the family event to have a different approach and one that's going to feel better for you.

Okay.

So talking about the husband also too, 'cause obviously this is a triangle essentially in this relationship.

How do you, what do you like in, in, in a perfect world, I think, oh, someone finds your book or whatever, and they both read it and then they're both like, okay, we have work to do, we wanna make sure we do this well.

Mm-hmm.

they're on the same page.

That obviously doesn't always happen, whether it be in regards to this relationship or other things inside of your marriage.

So.

How do we navigate this?

I would say, I'm talking about the wife at this point.

One, if we feel a little solo and isolated in it, but want it to be better.

And then two, maybe also trying to get them to enter into this with us and understand like, Hey, I need your help.

We have to be a team.

Where do we start?

How do we get through some of that?

The, the first thing I always say to people is recognize that this is your partner's mother.

And if we go back, we recognize that there are all of these coping mechanisms that your husband learned as a child to remain connected to his parent.

And so because of that today, if you go in and say, your mother is an awful person.

She's doing all these hurtful things, you need to, we need to.

That naturally is going to bring up defenses because first he has lived in these patterns and so they are just what they are.

Second, I'm also mindful that many of the men I work with, not all, but many, engage in avoidance in compartmentalizing, which means they're gonna shut things down faster.

We also know from gottman's research that in conflict, men have a higher spike in their physiological measures and they're more likely to shut down.

So physiologically we know that.

So I think it's really important then to recognize, so if it's me and I've picked up this book and I'm doing it on my own, how do I then start bringing forward these issues?

And the first starting point there is to start gently talking about things that don't feel good for you, which is, let's think of an example.

You're going to the holiday event that's coming up and you know, mother-in-law grab, grabs baby out of your hands and tells you all the things that you should be doing differently.

So you would go to your husband then and say.

There are these moments where I feel helpless and I don't feel good.

I feel pushed to the side, and I know that's no one's intention.

We give Ben, we give, as Dr. Becky would say, the most generous interpretation.

We give a positive interpretation, right?

But we say.

You know, this is something that I need and, and really talking about what is it that you need in those moments?

Do you need your husband to come in and to say something?

Do you need a boundary to be set ahead of time?

Do you need to baby wear during that time?

Or whatever that looks like.

Mm-hmm.

So that would be the situation where your partner's not on board, but then ideally you go to your partner and you say.

Like all of our family relationships matter to me, and I know there's this, maybe there's tension, maybe not.

And, and I do encourage people who do have good relationships.

You can still go through this book together, but you go to your partner and you say, let's do this as a team.

Because when we are on the same team, we are more resilient, meaning parenting feels a little bit easier.

It means going to work is not gonna drain us because we've just had another fight.

It means we're on the same page and.

This is about protecting relationships.

It's not about ghosting and estrangement.

That's, that's the last thing.

I talk about it in the book, but that's not what we're trying to do.

We don't get married and say, Hey, you know, Mike, cut your family out one day.

That we just don't do that.

We want the family connection around us.

And so I think when we talk about what we'll get out of this by doing it together, that's really important.

Okay.

That's so good.

Thank you.

I'm thinking a lot about.

How you keep saying this isn't just for like the, tough mother-in-law, daughter-in-law, relationships, like there's value here in all this.

'cause my husband and I have also had challenges between like the husband, father-in-law relationship too, and his relationship with his dad.

And so I think obviously the book is, you know, you, your husband and his mother, but I can see so clearly how.

This really does apply to all of these family dynamics and relationships and understanding, like you said, where they're coming from and bringing in that compassion, the grace, like it's going to be valuable for, for anyone to read this, I think, and then try to apply some of it to their family dynamics and relationships.

For sure.

I have one question that keeps popping into my head.

As you're talking about daughter-in-laws and how they're navigating this.

It's that idea of a lot of women are really strong, kind of like, I'm gonna say like Boss Babe, use some silly kind of stereotypes.

Women, and then they in this relationship show though they lose that strength or they, they no longer feel,

able to, to speak up or to, I don't wanna say like be in control 'cause that's not necessarily the goal, but to, to advocate if you will.

Why, why do you think that is?

Why do you think this is one relationship where we struggle so much with maybe showing up with strengths when otherwise we can, and we maybe some of us, you know, do it really well too.

What comes to mind first is what Brene Brown talks about, and this is especially how women are conditioned, which is her three Ps. Please perform perfect.

Women are taught, girls are taught at such a young age to be pleasing, to be caregivers, to not speak out.

And I think of even the popular, book.

Harriet Lerner, the Dance of Anger, love this book, and her forward of the book said it took five years to get this book published because nobody wanted to publish a book about women's anger.

And then she goes on to say how women are taught that anger is bad.

When you vent you, when you get angry, you're venting it out and you're a bee.

That's not good.

Mm-hmm.

Or you hold it in, you repress it, and you get resentful, which comes out in other ways.

And so we have been conditioned to not speak up for ourselves.

In family relationships.

And so then here's the person who means so much to you.

You are gonna spend the rest of your life with this person, and you want their family to like you.

It's a normal human experience.

You want to be loved, you want to be worthy.

You wanna know that you're adequate, and that, I think, is really where it becomes challenging to then say something and then to get on the same team.

And then the other piece too is we throw in the couple dynamic low.

And I think this is where it's tricky because so, so the question I often get is, why don't women have this great of a struggle with their mother?

So not all, but for many girls, we think about how their anger was expressed in growing up.

I remember seeing.

It's just in, in general.

I just, I know I have all these stories of clients who were allowed to be angry with their parents, and it's the expression of, you know, the moody teenage girl when she screams, I hate you.

I remember like my 6-year-old screamed, I hate you one day and slams her door.

And I'm like, whoa, that came so much earlier than my sons.

Yeah.

Like, okay, we're, we're here.

Right.

So this idea that girls, and I see this clinically, girls set boundaries earlier with their families.

They've been doing it in all of these micro moments ways.

So then when big life events happen, like the wedding or moving, or the baby, especially the baby, mm-hmm.

Then she says, mom, when you come over, don't give me advice.

I don't want advice from you.

Just like, tap my shoulder, give me a hug and tell me I'm okay.

But then she can't do that with her mother-in-law because it's someone else's mom.

That's one part, but her husband can't do it and he doesn't do it because.

More likely boys are taught to push their emotions away.

They tend to be more avoidantly attached, which means they're not sharing feelings and needs.

And so they've used avoidance and compartmentalizing to deal with issues in the family, and so they haven't practiced doing it before.

Mm-hmm.

Did I derail?

So, maybe a little.

No, that's alright.

Okay.

So much in here to come out.

No, I was thinking back to my original question about the moms showing up strong or not being able to show up strong and stuff like that.

No, you're good.

But I do wanna ask you one more question and then we can wrap it up.

Sound.

Okay.

Okay.

So a lot of my audience is in the season of having babies, and I know you just mentioned like especially with the baby, that this stuff might really come to the forefront.

So do you have just any really.

Practical advice for, for those who are maybe having that first baby and, and, and wanna do this well and, and want their mother-in-laws to be involved in really happy, I would say like happy, healthy ways.

What can maybe they be doing pregnant or conversations to try and broach with their, their spouse before baby's here and some of these additional challenges of having the mother-in-law.

A part of that too might show up.

I think it's so important to recognize that everybody goes into this season with expectations, meaning your mother-in-law, future grandmother Yeah.

Has the desires and wishes to, and so a place to start, you and your partner are sitting down and saying, what really matters to us around this time in the book, I have a list.

For you to go through specifically.

Okay.

I'll have a pre-order bonus as well that has those questions available as an advance, because I just kept thinking I can't make people wait to get this book.

So there's a pre-order bonus that's gonna give you all of those questions.

But sit down with your partner and talk about what matters to us about this time.

Who do we want to visit?

How long is that visit?

Who is staying where?

What feels good for us?

And I always encourage parents, you do not need to have anybody stay in your house because you are adjusting.

This is a big seasonal, like a season of transition, and we always want to prioritize what mom and baby need and we don't, we don't know.

Yeah, how things are gonna go.

So having that in mind is really important.

You and your partner being on the same page.

And then depending on the relationship you have with your mother-in-law, your extended family, have that conversation together and talk about, here are our desires.

You might even ask questions like, what kind of thoughts have you had around how often you'll come over?

Because asking a grandparent that question will give you an idea, oh, I thought I would drop by, you know, on every Sunday.

And you might be thinking.

That's lovely.

I would love to have you every Sunday, but you might also be thinking, that doesn't really work for us.

Mm-hmm.

And so those are the times where you can start saying, knowing this season where we'll be sleep deprived, where, you know, I can remember just, I don't know if I'm fully clothed or not, right?

Like mm-hmm.

You might then say, we need notice moving forward when you're going to come over.

We need to make this plan together.

And again, depending on who your mother-in-law is, this conversation might happen with both you and your husband or your husband.

Your partner needs to communicate that clearly to them.

Mm-hmm.

And I always say to couples, give reassurance to your extended family.

You're important to us.

We know you're excited.

We want you to be involved, and this is what we will do.

Mm-hmm.

Because that's where the boundaries come in.

Yeah.

That's so good.

I'm thinking too, you mentioned this as well, but just to circle back on that idea of also maybe speaking out loud to them and with them like that, this also might be a little bit fluid for us, like almost exposing your own vulnerability of like, I don't know how I'm gonna handle this transition.

I don't know how breastfeeding will go.

So.

Almost saying, Hey, can you please have some grace for us if, if this changes a little bit and like what We need changes?

Yes.

Because I think so many of us go into our first postpartum, and we don't, we have an idea of how it will go or maybe how we're gonna feel about visitors, like you said, and setting these expectations.

And then we get in it and then realize, oh, we'd actually would love more care and support, or we would like less, or, today is different than yesterday.

And so almost trying to just remind everyone in that relationship.

That this, this might change.

And so can you just like hold that grace for, for me and my husband, if you know, daughter-in-law, having this conversation so that you know, hey, I mentioned this to you, that, that I'm not totally sure how I'm gonna feel today, tomorrow, and at four weeks postpartum or whatever.

So I think making sure you put a pin in that too can be really, really helpful for these kind of preemptive combos as well.

And I have one piece to add to that, especially for our good girl daughter, our good girl daughters-in-law,

which is

probably me.

So

speak to me

and, and deep in my heart, me too.

So I totally get this.

This is going slow, so if someone makes a request of you, can we come over?

Give yourself a beat, let it filter through what it means.

Is it something that's going to work for you?

Does it feel good for you right now?

And remembering that this is your time and you need this time to heal and to bond.

You need it for the three of you.

And that your no isn't wrong just because they're upset.

Mm-hmm.

And that's something that our people pleasers and deep caregivers really need to hold onto.

If we think Enneagram, those are our type two and type threes, they need to hold onto, like when you say no, it doesn't make you a bad person, it just means.

So if they're upset because you say no, it doesn't make you a bad person, it just means that they're having their own feelings about it and they're allowed to have that.

Yep.

Yep.

And it's not a reflection again, of, of you, like we, no, goodness.

You've been throughout, like this is not about.

You like your mother-in-law is, is one way and you are a one way and you two are gonna come together and have to, yeah.

Have to figure it out.

Yeah.

Okay.

This is so helpful.

I feel like this, it's just such an interesting relationship, so it's not surprise.

I feel like we could keep talking and keep digging into.

Types and what happens when they come up against each other and all that.

Because yeah, it's just a really, I think, challenging and can be a really lovely relationship too.

But like, yeah, like you said, this is a person that we wanna, our spouse wanna be with forever, which means these are relationships we're gonna have forever too.

So it's just, it's big.

I think.

We, we know that these are big relationships, but also this is lifelong.

So that's a really big thing to hold and, mm-hmm.

And, and navigate.

So, yeah, absolutely.

Okay.

I, I would love for you to remind us the title of your book so we can keep an eye out for it.

Remind me of the release date.

I think I know, but I don't wanna say the wrong one.

And then where people could find you, find the links, the resources, all of that as well.

Yes, absolutely.

So for people listening, come and say hello to me over on Instagram.

That's my main area.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Tracy D is my handle.

And then you can find all the details on my website, dr tracy d.com.

And the book is called You, your Husband and his Mother, and it comes out November 4th.

So just before November, the American Thanksgiving and Christmas.

Okay.

Perfect.

And then one question I love to ask just for fun about anything, what is something in your life right now that's just like sparking a lot of joy for you?

Hmm.

Watching my children in this middle childhood stage mm-hmm.

It's, it's incredible and, and it links back to the book in the sense of how my job and someone had an, an angry.

Mother-in-law sent me a DM once and said, just wait until you have kids or, or wait, or Do you have a son?

Or, I can't remember what it was, but here's the deal.

I have a son and I am so attuned to what it means to be his first love in the sense of I'm showing him what it means to love another woman, and it's incredible to see.

How they begin to individuate from family, but then also how there's like this cuddling and coming back and being close.

And so with my kids being eight and 10, I'm just really grateful that I get to witness them on this journey.

It's just so cool.

It really

is.

Uh, my oldest is eight, so we have that crossover.

And when you just said that, like cuddling and the coming back, like, man, that tension's so real in these middle years.

Yeah.

And it's so fun to see when they step away.

But then also when they cuddle or come back, you're like, oh good.

You're still right here too.

It's such a sweet, it's just so different than the baby years to watch them do this and take those steps away too.

It's, it's a lot of fun.

So, yeah.

Thank you so much for coming here with me, giving me this time today.

I'm very excited about your book to read the whole thing.

I've kind of gotten to dig into it from some snippets that have been shared with me, so.

Thank you so much for listening to the Lo and Behold podcast.

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